Crit Racing question

[ironhanglider]

From reading that he got too close to the rider on the front, I get the impression that it was this that caused the crash?

He could have prevented himself from being too close by using brakes instead of steering into the duckboard?

No. You can modulate your speed fairly well with a fixed wheel without needing a brake. Rapid changes of speed cause crashes rather than prevent them. This is the reason why track bikes don't have brakes. They cause more crashes than they prevent. Panicked riders grabbing a handful of brake and skidding cause plenty of crashes on the road, however on the road brakes are an overall benefit.

In this case it sounds as if the rider was not aware that he was momentarily faster than the rider in front and chose to steer left down onto the flat section on the inside of the track (the duckboards) rather than to the right. What happens at the end of the straight and the track starts to bend left, a rider on the duckboards will either fail to have enough grip to turn without the assistance of the banking and will crash, or they will turn too late and find themselves going straight on when everyone else is turning left and either hit the back wheel of the rider in front and crash, or take out the front wheel of the rider behind often crashing themselves in the process. (I have had each scenario happen to me in consecutive weeks, fortunately not resulting in broken bones but it did cost me a new front wheel and clothes)

Overlapping on the inside is usually a bad move on the track.

Cheers,

Cameron

[g-boaf]

Next thing I know he has got too close to the rider on the front and steered onto the duckboard on the bend at 55km/hr!

From reading that he got too close to the rider on the front, I get the impression that it was this that caused the crash?

He could have prevented himself from being too close by using brakes instead of steering into the duckboard?

You don't want brakes on the track - and they don't have them anyhow. Steering onto the duckboards from the turns on a steep track is inviting a crash. You stay well away from them, for those reasons above.

Give it a go on and you'll understand. It's not that hard to do (riding fixed gear bikes). The racing might be suited to you even.

[zill]

Now it makes more sense. Will try it out for myself soon. But the races are usually held regularly in the Winter for track?

[g-boaf]

No, there are summer races too. If you are in Victoria, I've got no idea what is happening there, but if you are in Sydney (North-western Sydney?...) there is racing happening at Lidcombe (Wyatt Park) on Friday nights. No idea what Bankstown is doing at Dunc Gray velodrome. The racing at DGV tends to be stronger, the grades seem quicker.

In any case, riding down the inside of others is not the normal process on the track. There are some occasions where it can be done, but it isn't the general rule. It depends on a number of things.

[dalai47]

Will try it out for myself soon. But the races are usually held regularly in the Winter for track?

Being in Melbourne - Year round racing Tuesday and Thursday nights at DISC - http://vic.cycling.org.au/Track/DISC. Also semi regular Sunday races in Winter (a.k.a Sunday Roast on Wheels)

Otherwise Blackburn CC hold weekly Saturday afternoon races through Summer outdoors. Other clubs also hold races in Summer, but I don't think these are weekly.

To give it a try, Cycling Vic hold come and try sessions regularly through the year including hire bikes in the cost. http://vic.cycling.org.au/Track/Come-N- ... k-Sessions

[zill]

Will try it out for myself soon. But the races are usually held regularly in the Winter for track?

Being in Melbourne - Year round racing Tuesday and Thursday nights at DISC - http://vic.cycling.org.au/Track/DISC. Also semi regular Sunday races in Winter (a.k.a Sunday Roast on Wheels)

Otherwise Blackburn CC hold weekly Saturday afternoon races through Summer outdoors. Other clubs also hold races in Summer, but I don't think these are weekly.

To give it a try, Cycling Vic hold come and try sessions regularly through the year including hire bikes in the cost. http://vic.cycling.org.au/Track/Come-N- ... k-Sessions

How does the danger of track racing compare with criterium racing?

It seems you need to be nominated by your club to race after doing an initial learning session?

[dalai47]

How does the danger of track racing compare with criterium racing?

It seems you need to be nominated by your club to race after doing an initial learning session?

Track IMO is safer even with my accident (first in 7 years). Smaller bunches (max 24 riders on a 250 timber track but most track races will have much fewer racers on the track at any time), clear rules around the sprinters lane and no brakes.

Most clubs do have training sessions you need to do before they let you race which is another plus in regards to safety. Once you have the okay, not sure about the nomination bit. Once I did the training sessions I was racing.

[nickobec]

zill

I think you need to reconsider how you race and what your aims are.

If I was the handicapper at the club, where you held of a chasing bunch solo for 20 minutes (if you were pushing out 300 watts, then the typical club C grade was chasing hard). I would push you up a grade no matter what the result, because you clearly demonstrated how much stronger you are over every other rider in that grade.

Grading should be about racing people of similar strengths and abilities, not allowing riders who can't do one or two things well, dominate a race because of their other strengths are far superior to others in their grade.

I do have some sympathy for you, I have poor coordination and balance, have issues riding in packs and particularly taking part in sprints + my sprint is pretty weak. So I am an aggressive attacking rider always looking for a breakaway and failing that, launching a suicidal attacking with only a kilometre of two to go.

Best I can manage off the front for twenty minutes would be 250 watts. I race C grade with two clubs and are competitive in both. My lack off a sprint does cost me.

The B graders I know, don't manage 300 watts over a 16km TT. So you are definitely B grade if not A grade material.

So at some stage you will get promoted to B or A grade, where you will not be able to ride off the front and you need to learn to ride in a bunch and work the sprint (which is what I am doing know).

You need to decide to keep riding to your strengths, get your self promoted early and start learning to riding in bunches in B (or A) grade. Or ease back now, try to improve your weakest skills and use your strengths to get you out of trouble. In other words give up being an escape artist, ride at the front of the bunch and get use to other riders around you, learn how to sprint etc. In my opinion easier to do it in C than B or A.

[Xplora]

In fairness I reckon a lot of guys haven't built their base fitness before starting to race, so they are sprinters who lack the fitness to sprint effectively, because they are shagged by the time the bell rings. They take time to develop the fitness and skills to do the sprint well. Breakaway specialists who have already developed an engine are a completely different kettle of fish.

[Derny Driver]

Don't be fooled ... its often easier to ride by yourself at your own comfortable pace than it is to ride in a bunch of riders at other people's fluctuating speeds.
Riding off the front of a group is the easy way out for people who are scared of being in a bunch or who cant handle speed variations.
Riding off the front on your own can be a sign of weakness (and stupidity). Even if that pace is a reasonably fast one, its still an easy way out for an unskilled rider.

Instigating small breakaways or bridging to them, swapping turns in a small group off the front and then either winning the sprint or attacking the breakaway in the finale ...well that's impressive and worthy of consideration to move up a grade.
Riding solo and then getting smashed when the real action happens late in the race is .... almost laughable.

[zill]

Don't be fooled ... its often easier to ride by yourself at your own comfortable pace than it is to ride in a bunch of riders at other people's fluctuating speeds.
Riding off the front of a group is the easy way out for people who are scared of being in a bunch or who cant handle speed variations.
Riding off the front on your own can be a sign of weakness (and stupidity). Even if that pace is a reasonably fast one, its still an easy way out for an unskilled rider.

Instigating small breakaways or bridging to them, swapping turns in a small group off the front and then either winning the sprint or attacking the breakaway in the finale ...well that's impressive and worthy of consideration to move up a grade.
Riding solo and then getting smashed when the real action happens late in the race is .... almost laughable.

Some good points there.

I actually did two crits on consecutive days. On day one, lapped the field (a weak C grade group) and won on a very windy day which definitely was to my advantage as it discouraged the chasing group to work cooperatively. Race was 45 min plus 2 laps (as a result of lapping the guys). Averaged 280 watts for the entire race or 4.1 watts/kg. Rode a total of 110km on that day as the race was far away and rode to and back from the race.

Raced C grade again on the second day with a different club and stronger group. It was a leap of faith too far as I once again attacked early in the race. After a few laps legs were "hurting" a bit but persisted with it. Still managed to ride 20 minutes in front averaging a bit over 300 watts (this is what nickobec and you were referring to). I then recovered after riding at the back of the group for the reminder of the race. Still tried to get in position for the sprint but was overtaken on a tight corner in the last lap dropping out of the top 10. Never recovered from that as I was now being blocked by slower riders who over took me on that corner. But I'm slowly learning from each unsuccessful sprint.

At this stage, I want each race to be a cardio workout as well as having a go at the sprint hence if I feel the group is going too slowly early on, will try to attack. Will be racing B grade at the club that I lapped at the request of the official. Definitely will be looking forward to that!

[jules21]

i think we're giving Zill too much advice, if we could slow it down a bit, I'm unsure he needs more help

[thelittlebattler]

zill

...

Best I can manage off the front for twenty minutes would be 250 watts. I race C grade with two clubs and are competitive in both. My lack off a sprint does cost me.

The B graders I know, don't manage 300 watts over a 16km TT. So you are definitely B grade if not A grade material.

So at some stage you will get promoted to B or A grade, where you will not be able to ride off the front and you need to learn to ride in a bunch and work the sprint (which is what I am doing know).

You need to decide to keep riding to your strengths, get your self promoted early and start learning to riding in bunches in B (or A) grade. Or ease back now, try to improve your weakest skills and use your strengths to get you out of trouble. In other words give up being an escape artist, ride at the front of the bunch and get use to other riders around you, learn how to sprint etc. In my opinion easier to do it in C than B or A.

I said early on I thought I was in a similar situation to you, but 20mins at +300w I don't think I am!

[Chris249]

I can do 500 watts in a crit, easily.

1- "Watt the *&&^%% am I doing here?"

2- "Watt part of me is hurting now?"

3- "Watt the hell, how can these guys go this fast?"

4- "Watt's going to happen if I clip wheels here"?

5- "Watt was the track designer thinking?"

6- "Watt was that *&^%$ doing in that turn?"

7- "Watt would it feel like if I had $3000 wheels?"

8- "Watt am I doing without a power meter, coach, training regime, etc?"

9- "Watt am I doing this far off the back?"

10- "Watt was Lance on again, and where can I get some?"

Repeat those questions a few times every lap and I'm up to 600 watts per crit with no worries.

PS- I haven't got a power meter - anyone know how many watts does it take to run B Grade at Randwick Botany?

[donncha]

PS- I haven't got a power meter - anyone know how many watts does it take to run B Grade at Randwick Botany?

Roughly 300W for me at 84kg.

[nickobec]

It is easy to see what chris247 is doing wrong

2- "Watt part of me is hurting now?"

should be
"Watt part of me is not hurting right now"

[Chris249]

Not all of me hurts.....some parts go numb when I'm driving hard.

Actually my other sports build up my core and upper body, so they are normally fine. I don't think I work as hard as most people; I've only once had my fingers go numb due to exertion 'cause I'm a wimp!

[Chris249]

PS- I haven't got a power meter - anyone know how many watts does it take to run B Grade at Randwick Botany?

Roughly 300W for me at 84kg.

Thanks for that!