Bikes not fit for purpose in the Pro peleton

[Derny Driver]

A lot of discussion on my social media at the moment about the current crop of bikes being ridden by pro teams (and ipso facto, the average punter). Many former pro riders are commenting along the lines that bikes are being forced upon the sport by an industry solely intent on promoting new ways of generating income. Handling is being sacrificed for aerodynamics. Many bike fitters are also saying that 90% of the pros are riding bikes that are the wrong size (usually too small).
As an example,
This video of Matej Mahoric descending on a rim brake equipped bicycle 3 years ago shows that he is probably THE best, or certainly one of the best descenders in the pro peleton
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2Mq9nxtKqA
Stage 9 of this years Giro and Mahoric locks up his disc brake bike and lands on his head on an unremarkable corner. The forks snap off the bike on impact.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfPw-PO2Yws
This is not an anti-disc brakes thread. The problem is far more complicated than that. But I do agree that bicycle manufacturers only care about selling bikes, they do not care how the bike handles as long as they can baffle the buyers with the right amount of technical data to make them think it is an improvement on last years model. Pro teams HAVE to ride what the sponsor gives them, whether the bike is safe or not. Bicycle manufacturers sponsor the Pro teams in order to gain publicity and credibility for their brand.
Many people are worried about the dangerous direction bicycle manufacturers are heading. Rules stopping riders from sitting on the top tube, or resting arms on the handlebars are the least of the safety problems that are starting to appear at the moment.

Cue the comments

[warthog1]

Stay off social media

[find_bruce]

There was a shock horror article recently because Caleb Ewan's bike only had an 11 speed cassette

[MichaelB]

What a crock

[P!N20]

Cue the comments

I'm just glad I'll never have to worry about descending at 95km/h.

[Thoglette]

But I do agree that bicycle manufacturers only care about selling bikes,

Race on Sunday, sell on Monday.

And you need something to convince Fred the Dentist that he must upgrade.
Urgently.
Every year.

[2wheels_mond]

Handling is being sacrificed for aerodynamics. Many bike fitters are also saying that 90% of the pros are riding bikes that are the wrong size (usually too small).

Ah, so the theory is that aero bikes handle worse?

Nice comparison here, since Matej Mahoric is riding a Merida in both videos, and has been riding for Bahrain-Merida since 2018 (and, in fact, has ridden Merida since 2016 as he was in Lampre Merida before that).

As an example,
This video of Matej Mahoric descending on a rim brake equipped bicycle 3 years ago shows that he is probably THE best, or certainly one of the best descenders in the pro peleton
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2Mq9nxtKqA

In this video, he's clearly on the Merida Reacto aero bike - the seatstay join makes it obvious (the Scultura joins at the top of the down tube, the Reacto joins part way down) - see here:



Yet now...

Stage 9 of this years Giro and Mahoric locks up his disc brake bike and lands on his head on an unremarkable corner. The forks snap off the bike on impact.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfPw-PO2Yws

He's clearly riding a Merida Scultura Disc, their non-aero, lightweight bike, which has not been updated since it was introduced at the end of 2015.

But I do agree that bicycle manufacturers only care about selling bikes, they do not care how the bike handles as long as they can baffle the buyers with the right amount of technical data to make them think it is an improvement on last years model.

Bike manufacturers care about selling bikes? Shock horror. If the bike handles poorly, then surely it will show up on reviews, which surely form a decent component of most modern consumer's spending choices.*

* of course, how objective these reviews are is another matter entirely.

Pro teams HAVE to ride what the sponsor gives them, whether the bike is safe or not.

Maybe the recent Canyon Aeroad handlebar saga would have been a better example, or the BMC D-shaped fork recall from two years ago.

The general sentiment I can understand. The example you've given, I don't understand.

[Thoglette]

If the bike handles poorly, then surely it will show up on reviews, which surely form a decent component of most modern consumer's spending choices.*

* of course, how objective these reviews are is another matter entirely.

I purchased an article a few years ago, which crowned Australia's best sports car of the year. Naturally, the winner was visible in a full size advertisement on the opposite page. A lovely, sporty 4WD sedan. But a sedan never the less.

Now, it beat out the Lotus Elise and Porsche 911. Better value for money? More comfortable ride? More reliable? (Lotus once meant Lots of Trouble Usually Serious). Better dealer network? Better drive out of slow corners?

No. The Elise and the 911 were knocked out for "handling flaws".

Fortunately I wasn't drinking or eating anything when I read that!

Ah, stiffen my bottom bracket!

[nickobec]

and if we had social media in 1913 they would be saying exactly the same thing when Eugène Christophe broke his fork descending the Tourmalet

[Derny Driver]

The general sentiment I can understand. The example you've given, I don't understand.

Well its generally accepted that Mahoric's Giro crash was due to a disc brake lock up. The move by manufacturers to disc brake bikes is in my opinion, purely a marketing move. Hence my example. But there are arguments for and against disc brakes on other threads.

As for your other points, I accept them and am genuinely impressed by your detective work.

Despite my post I dont have super strong opinions about the topic. If I did, I would have spent more time looking for examples to back my proposition. The fact is, there probably arent too many as its more of a suspicion or feeling rather than something really obvious.

Thanks for your contribution

[am50em]

Crash caused by disc brakes - well I suppose this is replacing the peloton will be cut to pieces by disc brakes.

[lone rider]

I got flamed on reddit for suggesting the same thing. This crash was caused by disc brakes, there is no question at all, a rim brake bike would not have riders flying over the handlbars like this. Every idiot is pointing to the road surface being unfit for racing on. These people wouldnt want to enter a NSW open, most are held on pot-holed country roads with gravel covered corners. I have laughed at being stuck behind people decending on disc brakes, and not hubbards, people that have raced and ridden for years, they are approaching corners like a grandma with no confidence in the brake set-up. We have seen forks snap like this in other crashes, there was a sprint crash in the TDU not long back where a Focus ejected its front wheel. But with the current geometry trend, head tubes are being made taller and taller so if somebody wants an aggressive set up they are forced to go a smaller size or find a ridiculous angle stem just to make their set up work. Aero frames is what caused the push for disc brakes, normal calipers were dumped in favour of going back to V-brakes which were only still found on K-Mart level bikes. People soon realised V-brakes were about as useful for braking as unclipping and putting your feet on the ground like Fred Flinstone did so the aero frame manufacturers decided the answer is disc brakes. A solution for a problem that didnt exist in the first place, and they call this technology advancement.....

[rkelsen]

A solution for a problem that didnt exist in the first place, and they call this technology advancement.

Yes, but the same could be said for most of the developments in bicycle tech over the past 2 decades.

[am50em]

I learn new things everyday.
1. Disc brakes only have two states, off and fully locked.
2. Rim brakes have anti-lock function built-in.
3. Riders never went over handlebars until disc brakes introduced.

[P!N20]

1. Disc brakes only have two states, off and fully locked.

I thought one of the main reasons people liked (hydraulic) disc brakes was the modulation available?

2. Rim brakes have anti-lock function built-in.
3. Riders never went over handlebars until disc brakes introduced.

I've been OTB with rim brakes. Sure, it wasn't in a race, but it was in a situation where I needed to stop in a hurry.

[warthog1]

Crash caused by disc brakes - well I suppose this is replacing the peloton will be cut to pieces by disc brakes.

I learn new things everyday.
1. Disc brakes only have two states, off and fully locked.
2. Rim brakes have anti-lock function built-in.
3. Riders never went over handlebars until disc brakes introduced.

Well said!

[warthog1]

I've been OTB with rim brakes. Sure, it wasn't in a race, but it was in a situation where I needed to stop in a hurry.

Ditto
Just sheer incompetence on my part.

[Nobody]

One aspect I've noticed with bicycle disk brakes that I don't see on my motorcycle disc brakes is the shudder with hard front braking. One only has to look down at their front hub under hard braking to see the fork vibrating forward and back. This can't be good on a wet road entering a corner in a race, or otherwise. I don't know why they can't make rotors that run smoother on the pads. Do the pads need to be bigger to average the variation out more? If the rotors were solid and uniform in shape, would that help? I'd guess that both of these changes would probably make the brakes weight too much.

Below is a pic of my motorcycle's brake pad against a couple of bicycle disc pads. See the difference in length.

[RonK]

This crash was caused by disc brakes, there is no question at all, a rim brake bike would not have riders flying over the handlbars like this.

I watched the replays carefully, it was quite clear to me that he was ejected over the handlebars when the rear wheel slid out, then gripped, in what is known to motorcycle racers as as classic “high side” crash.
And to put the incident into context, the commentary was about how hard he was pushing and how much risk he was taking. I don’t believe this crash was caused by the equipment at all, he simply overcooked the descent.

[RonK]

One aspect I've noticed with bicycle disk brakes that I don't see on my motorcycle disc brakes is the shudder with hard front braking.

Then you simply haven’t braked your motorcycle hard enough (or perhaps your moto has ABS). I have definitely experienced front end chatter under severe braking, and it’s a common handling issue if you watch MotoGP or WSBK.

[Nobody]

Fair enough. Although I had the ABS come on, so I have braked hard enough for that.

Don't watch motorcycle racing.

Lets step up again then. Do car disc brakes shudder? I haven't noticed it. And yes I've locked up brakes on a car many times. My car doesn't have ABS. Maybe in a car I'm not connected enough to the wheels to sense it though.

[number21]

I don't have any beef with discs being on bikes, though I've yet to find a suitable reason to make the switch from rim brakes. My riding is almost all on road, very occasionally on gravel and really only ride in the rain if I'm commuting or it catches me out when training.

What gets up my nose though is that the current push by industry is gradually slowing down new releases of rim wheel options and more and more disc only options. So thats my bias on the table but my initial feeling was Mahorics rear wheel had skipped over the rough tarmac and locked pitching him once it's stepped out a little and hit the road again.

I was glad to see he was able to get up, and that he turned down the offer to throw his leg over the bike his team offered him. Surely the UCI could at the very least mandate a check of the helmet before allowing riders back into the peloton, especially considering they've still got more downhill immediately ahead of them.

Ineos seemed to hold their own ok on the loose gravel the other night, just sayin'

[am50em]

What gets up my nose though is that the current push by industry is gradually slowing down new releases of rim wheel options and more and more disc only options.

This appears to me to be the (usually) unstated agenda of the anti-disc brake proponents. I sympathise with this, I dislike the industry move to 2x and 1x with dinner plate clusters on todays mountain bikes. But I do not claim these technologies are causing crashes!

[Nobody]

Then you simply haven’t braked your motorcycle hard enough (or perhaps your moto has ABS). I have definitely experienced front end chatter under severe braking, and it’s a common handling issue if you watch MotoGP or WSBK.

Another thought. If this shudder is a problem with MCs as well, why haven't engineers looked back at rim brakes and created a new braking system to avoid it? It could win races and revolutionize the MC industry.

[lone rider]

Cars and motos have suspension to absorb any effect of over-braking or grabbing.