Why do too many e-bike riders demand speed?

[Janice]

I am almost 64, and have been riding bicycles since the age of four. I have also ridden motorcycles since before I was old enough for a licence. I currently drive a car (and sometimes the odd small truck), and ride both my 'normal' retro road-bicycles and an e-bike, and am considering regaining my motorcycle licence after a lapse of several years.

Yes, I have adjusted the settings on my e-bike (it's a 'legal' 250w e-MTB, not a 'frankenbike' with a huge motor, dodgy frame and no brakes) to do a maximum of 30-35km/h - BUT I very seldom actually USE that extra speed. I do NOT use it on cycle paths or mixed cycle/walking paths at any time. My machine has 5 power settings, and for most general riding I use position 3. I use 2 and sometimes even 1 on shared paths (depending on how busy they are), and 4 on hills. HOWEVER - if I am in reasonably heavy or fast-moving traffic, I use position 5, which gives me access to that extra few km/h. This reduces the speed difference between me and the surrounding traffic and improves my safety.

I know exactly what I'm doing, am not an 'old bloke without the skills or reflexes to handle it' and am certainly not a young smartarse to whom speed is everything. My e-bike is well-equipped to handle the extra 5-10km/h without issues - the brakes, lighting, tyres etc are more than adequate for the task, as I am more than qualified/experienced enough to judge. I made an informed decision as an experienced cyclist and motorcyclist to tweak the speed as a safety measure, and am perfectly happy and comfortable with my decision and see no reason why I shouldn't be.

If others disagree, or don't like it for whatever reason (and no doubt some will), I'd venture to suggest that it's their problem, not mine, and I certainly won't appreciate being abused or denigrated for my decision (again, as no doubt some will).

I'm exactly the same. I could do 45km/h on my ebike but my power setting keeps it down to 32km/h on the flat. I feel quite safe on the road. I have been passed by fit cyclists so it is not as if it is a crazy speed. I find 32km/h a good speed on suburban roads.

People seem to have this impression that if you do something illegal you lose all legal rights. I'm not sure where you studied law but when I studied law, you were responsible if your negligence caused the accident. Just having an illegally powered ebike doesn't mean you were negligent or caused an accident.

I find it laughable that I am criticised for doing 32km/h when there are electric scooters that can do double that speed.

[Thoglette]

People seem to have this impression that if you do something illegal you lose all legal rights. I'm not sure where you studied law but when I studied law, you were responsible if your negligence caused the accident.

See Appleby, Gabrielle; Webster, Adam --- "Cycling and the Law" [2016] UNSWLawJl 4; (2016) 39(1) UNSW Law Journal 129 as an example who cite
Penrith City Council v East Realisations Pty Ltd (in liq) [2013] NSWCA 64; (2013) 63 MVR 180, 193 [53] (Tobias AJA), 184 [4] (McColl JA). to support the case that

A breach of the Road Rules is not definitive of a breach of duty of care, but it will be an important factor to be taken into account in determining a breach

In the case you outline, one’s behaviour might be argued to be wilful given the conscious, premeditated decision to ignore the law.

Given that not having a working front light is deemed to be contributory negligence when run over from behind by a car (NSW late 90s IIRC- anyone remember the case details?) if you get cleaned up by Mr SIDSYM you’ll be on the back foot from day one.

[Prydey]

The argument against raising the speed limit is no different to the argument regarding towing laws or many other restrictions.

Many old caravanners argue that the lack of regulation around towing will cause havoc on the road, with novices allowed to buy a car with a 3.5t tow capacity, hook up a 3 t van and set off around the country, having never towed before.

While this scenario is possible, the reality is it just doesn't happen.

Same with cars having no speed limiters. We don't see people driving at 200kmh just because their car can do it.

The same goes for ebikes. Raising the limit will not result in mass chaos on the bike paths. Just because a bike is capable of the speed doesn't mean the rider will ride at that speed.

[AUbicycles]

The same goes for ebikes. Raising the limit will not result in mass chaos on the bike paths. Just because a bike is capable of the speed doesn't mean the rider will ride at that speed.

I disagree, but still understand the view.

In Holland there was a marked increase in seniors riders of ebikes causing accidents - the premise being that the ebikes (with 250 watt restriction) meant that some riders were then able to travel faster they usually would though were unable to maintain the same level of control at speed.

I am not sure that there would be mass chaos, but as I am based in Europe and visit various cities where there are strong ebike adoption levels, there are enough yahoos who travel faster than they would or should (eg shared or pedestrian areas or at intersections or congested traffic).

The Speed pedelec is a solution that makes faster speeds possible but still with regulation (license) that limits a free for all.

[Thoglette]

The argument against raising the speed limit is no different …

A whole pile of wishful assertion follows.

When you have something that undoes the basis of the EU regulations (in short: that assistance emulates a typical utility rider and will have similar safety outcomes ), please do report it.

If you want an R-N class license and your state doesn’t have one, feel free to fix that problem.

[outnabike]

Funny about Holland, I rode a bike all around Venlo for about 5 weeks. Mostly on my own just sight seeing.
The only traffic problem I had was one car door being opened on me, and one young fella side swiping me on one of those scooter type thingo's. The are like a tiny Lambretta motor scooter.

They do not need rego and are allowed on bike lanes.The seem popular with young and old and in a country used to cycling seem to fit the bill. I reckon one impatient young man is not too bad and the verbal toss he gave was not understood in any case....

I reckon in Oz a bit of speed on bike paths might get rid of stray dogs and wandering peds.... Sort of like importing rabbits , then foxes to get rid of the rabbits. Then get some cane toads in to get rid of snakes....
Then let larger motor bike on the paths to get rid of the small motor scooters.

Yep, then widen the bike paths and call them roads.... Then build one way 600mm wide bike paths made from just gravel... Mmmmm been locked up for too long.

[ColinOldnCranky]

I find it laughable that I am criticised for doing 32km/h when there are electric scooters that can do double that speed.

Hmm, let's see about that...

I find it laughable that I am criticised for beating up my wife when there are other men who kill theirs.

Sorry but I'm struggling to see the compelling argument here.

[ColinOldnCranky]

...
HOWEVER - if I am in reasonably heavy or fast-moving traffic, I use position 5, which gives me access to that extra few km/h. This reduces the speed difference between me and the surrounding traffic and improves my safety.

There is a case for motorists, when passing on country roads, to get past the slower vehicles as quickly as they can. Even if this takes them over the speed limit.

Even though I'm not a fan of increasing the capacity of e-bikes and the like, in much the same way as my example your point may make sense.

(The fly in the ointment of these arguments is the matter of policing.)

[Comedian]

I find it laughable that I am criticised for doing 32km/h when there are electric scooters that can do double that speed.

Hmm, let's see about that...

I find it laughable that I am criticised for beating up my wife when there are other men who kill theirs.

Sorry but I'm struggling to see the compelling argument here.

Well the electric scooters aren't legal either..

Personally I don't really worry about e devices doing what I consider to be typical bikes speeds.. like around 30 ish. It's the ones doing 40, 50,60+ kph on paths and shared paths that I've got a real issue with. I have 0 care if they want to do that on the road but I've rarely seen that (I gather because the chances of being picked up by a cop is much greater on road).

[slipsam]

I 100% agree with the Fixer above.
I'm hoping to buy an ebike soon and will be modding it to increase the 25km/hr limit.
I used to regularly commute on my roadie when i lived 30km from work. But I'm now 42km from work with lots of hills and its just a bit too far on the roadie, especially when the days are shorter.
I'll use the power on the hills to increase my avg speed and keep a bit higher speed in the traffic, a lot of which is semi rural and 80km/hr speed limit.
i think having a catch-all regulation that is the same for road users as it is for kids on bike paths is nonsensical. I dont know what the answer is, but it doesnt work the way it is.

[Comedian]

I 100% agree with the Fixer above.
I'm hoping to buy an ebike soon and will be modding it to increase the 25km/hr limit.
I used to regularly commute on my roadie when i lived 30km from work. But I'm now 42km from work with lots of hills and its just a bit too far on the roadie, especially when the days are shorter.
I'll use the power on the hills to increase my avg speed and keep a bit higher speed in the traffic, a lot of which is semi rural and 80km/hr speed limit.
i think having a catch-all regulation that is the same for road users as it is for kids on bike paths is nonsensical. I dont know what the answer is, but it doesnt work the way it is.

I think it's good to remember that the regulations that we have in Australia are the "european standard". Which from what I can see works perfectly well over there.

The 25k limit looks to fit in well with their cycling speeds which are more upright utility cycling. I believe their average speeds are more in the realm of 19kph (amsterdam). They also have excellent direct and connected off road paths. So, distances are shorter which is a big thing. If your trip relatively shorter the top speed isn't as important. Also they don't have to cycle in high speed road environments - where sitting on 25kph can leave you feeling very vulnerable with increased closing speeds.

[ColinOldnCranky]

i think having a catch-all regulation that is the same for road users as it is for kids on bike paths is nonsensical.

Agreed.

[Thoglette]

So, what speed should you have?
30 kph ain't going to do a thing to address the DGAF-clowns and 50kph puts you straight into R-N territory.

What's the magic number?

[slipsam]

I'd be happy with 32-35km/hr.
Enough so i'm not penalised on the flat and can average 30 or just over on a decent commute.

[Mr Purple]

So, what speed should you have?
30 kph ain't going to do a thing to address the DGAF-clowns and 50kph puts you straight into R-N territory.

What's the magic number?

It's a tough one, isn't it. I'm not convinced 30km/hr is any more dangerous than 25km/hr, but above that it starts becoming more risky.

As a reasonably, fit committed naturally aspirated cyclist I start to worry when people can buy something at JB Hifi and immediately start averaging speeds faster than I can. I'm not sure whether this is a logical worry - in that most of them won't have a gradual progression to those speeds and probably have poor bike handling abilities. Or whether I'm just jealous that I have to actually work hard and train to go slower than they do.

I suppose logically I really don't want to have to be cruising along bikeways doing an average 32-35km/hr and having to watch out behind for fast passing e-bike traffic. At that point the bikeways probably become as dangerous as the road. I get passed by an actual cyclist about once a month. E-bikes/scooters quite often.

[Comedian]

So, what speed should you have?
30 kph ain't going to do a thing to address the DGAF-clowns and 50kph puts you straight into R-N territory.

What's the magic number?

This is the difficulty. 25k is so comically low that virtually everyone removes the limiter. There is no enforcement so if you are going to make the bike illegal why not go all in? There are no consequences for doing so - so why not?

IMHO a more suitable number for Australian conditions would probably be the us 20 MPH (32k) US standard. I'd be quite ok if that was adopted. But conditional on it going with meaningful and effective enforcement.

It should also apply to PMD.. which as i've observed elsewhere .. on and on ...are becoming the go-to devices for people who want speed on the paths. Certainly around BNE anyway.

[Comedian]

I suppose logically I really don't want to have to be cruising along bikeways doing an average 32-35km/hr and having to watch out behind for fast passing e-bike traffic. At that point the bikeways probably become as dangerous as the road. I get passed by an actual cyclist about once a month. E-bikes/scooters quite often.

See the people buying these e-thingies and they don't want to ride on the road because it's dangerous and they might get caught.

So, they open them up on the paths. It's a bit more dangerous for all the existing path users, but a bit safer for them. Better to be the shark on the bike track rather than the minnow on the road, right?

[Mr Purple]

I suppose logically the correct top speed for an e-bike is the one that lets them keep up with bikeway traffic without making the bikeways more dangerous.

I feel like saying to them 'you can go 30km/hr + on the bikeways, if you pedal it your bloody self'. To be honest though I have more near misses with dingbats on 25km/hr rental scooters weaving erratically and thinking they're the fastest things on the bikeway. Probably because they're occasional users.

[skyblot]

This is the difficulty. 25k is so comically low that virtually everyone removes the limiter.

I've been thinking about this one. I disagree that 25kmh is comically low. It's roughly 4 times walking pace, 2 to 3 times running pace.

For sure, it's easy for fit and motivated riders to comfortably exceed 25kmh, cruising 30 plus is very common. But that's not the market I see the e-bikes aimed at. This forum is populated by the enthusiast riders to whom 25kmh is slow, and I think that skews perception.

The average non-sport rider I see getting around my area are doing 20 if lucky, sometimes much less. (One group ride I went on had an average moving speed of 7kmh. Yes, 7.)

Put a fit enthusiast on a legal e-bike and yep, it feels slow and that the e-kit isn't doing anything for them. Put a novice rider on an e-bike and very soon the bike is travelling much faster than the rider - I know of several riders having accidents as a result of the speed and power available, and these were 250 watt speed limited kits with brake cut out's etc - complete with lengthy hospital stays as a result.

What's the right answer? I don't know. But it strikes me that the 250W and 25kmh limits are practical and sensible compromises. 250W more than doubles the power available for an average person, and 25kmh is fast enough to cover ground but without the lethal consequences of inexperience.

I also have trouble buying the argument that it's different in Australia to Europe, it's still just people riding bikes. Though Europeans seem more "grown up" about it.

[grt046]

[/quote]
This is the difficulty. 25k is so comically low that virtually everyone removes the limiter. There is no enforcement so if you are going to make the bike illegal why not go all in? There are no consequences for doing so - so why not?

IMHO a more suitable number for Australian conditions would probably be the us 20 MPH (32k) US standard. I'd be quite ok if that was adopted. But conditional on it going with meaningful and effective enforcement.

It should also apply to PMD.. which as i've observed elsewhere .. on and on ...are becoming the go-to devices for people who want speed on the paths. Certainly around BNE anyway.
[/quote]

Not sure if I agree. 25kph seems adequate for the hybrid style e bike I see frequently sharing paths in my locality.

I recently ventured into e bikes and add some of my early observations.

I am getting on in years (80) and slowing up a bit particularly on hilly sections and was looking for some help to allow me to continue to ride with my mates most of whom are more than 10 years younger.
After a lot of research mainly from UK reviews and a couple of short test rides I took the plunge with a drop bar E Road Orbea Gain which is one of the lighter out there at around 12kg. The aim was to continue to get the workout .... just travel a little quicker when the road goes up.
The group I ride with generally ride at an average around 26 on most rides so low 30's on the flat. My initial concern that I would find riding unassisted at those speeds difficult has proven incorrect. Most of our riding is on road.
When I saved my first ride as an E-Bike ride on Strava I noticed virtually few E segments existing so have progressive added some as a measure for myself largely but as they have been populated for previous rides by others (up to 80 in some segments) it appears that most seem to be legit with a few with clearly modified speed cutout.
I am happy with my decision and find that the current speed of 25kph suits me just fine.

[Mububban]

I've been thinking about this one. I disagree that 25kmh is comically low. It's roughly 4 times walking pace, 2 to 3 times running pace.

For sure, it's easy for fit and motivated riders to comfortably exceed 25kmh, cruising 30 plus is very common. But that's not the market I see the e-bikes aimed at. This forum is populated by the enthusiast riders to whom 25kmh is slow, and I think that skews perception.

Yes I'm reviewing an ebike for the forum, and it's brought about a mindset shift compared to commuting on my road bike. Initially I was trying to flog the ebike to go faster, then realised it was pointless as it's not built for speed, and just dialled it right back and enjoyed the slower pace.

The extra minutes it takes me to ride are traded off for not needing a shower when I arrive.

But the apparent Aussie "need for speed" will see lots of people hacking them if they're using them for commuting rather than just general assisted mobility, if the limit stays at 25kmh.

[AUbicycles]

This is the difficulty. 25k is so comically low that virtually everyone removes the limiter.

No they don’t.

Some people do, but most people don’t think or consider ir and they just ride.

And if you want to go faster, pedal power is still available.

[Comedian]

This is the difficulty. 25k is so comically low that virtually everyone removes the limiter.

No they don’t.

Some people do, but most people don’t think or consider ir and they just ride.

And if you want to go faster, pedal power is still available.

So - I'm telling you - yes they do remove the limiters.

The majority of electric scooters have been de-limited. Removing the limiter on electric bikes is a bit less common.. maybe more so now the people who want speed are moving to scooters.

This might be a local Brisbane thing

[Thoglette]

This might be a local Brisbane thing

Ah, probably.

25kph is faster than most people can sprint, so it's not "comically slow": it's actually the boundary between "I hit an XXX and nearly faceplanted when I jumped off " and "why am I in hospital?"

Comically slow would be "I can't keep up with pedestrians"

[AUbicycles]

My mistake, I was thinking ebikes... not scooters.