3000w ebike and the law in Victoria?

[Ebikingmelb]

Hello I have been told by the guy at the bike shop today that my bike is apparently illegal and it should not have more than 250w.
I hardly ever go over 25kmh on it the only time I have is when I finished building it to test it out and got it up to 85kmh on Springvale Rd and it got a bit freaky so I slowed down after I hit 85 and it felt like it had more to go and that was the only time I have done that.
I purchased a 350w ebike online about 2 years ago and it was so underpowered that it would not get me up any of the big hills around my area so I decided to build my own as I could not find many bikes online that are over 1000w.
I have a disability and basically cannot pedal so the 350w ebike was useless to me and the PAS system was very hard for me and it simply could not get me up most of the hills around here.
I spent a lot of money building this 3000w ebike and I'm aware that 25kmh is the speed limit on ebikes so I rarely go over 25kmh.
I figured that if they sell ebikes that are 1000w online then they must be legal which is why I built this 3000w ebike.
There is no way I am going to stop riding this thing as I don't have a car and I have a disability but was surprised when he told me that today I've been riding it for over a year now and have not had a problem with the bike or the police what makes this bike so illegal?
I just need the power for going up hills and it gets me up any hill very easily and i can travel over 70 kilometres in distance on my 2 battery system on a single charge.
There are many videos of people online with bikes over 1000w and they are very practical in my opinion and really fun to ride why do we have a restriction of anything over 250w apparently?
What is the power of your bikes?
Thank you for your Feedback and taking the time to read this.

[nomilknosugar]

I hardly ever go over 25kmh on it the only time I have is when I finished building it to test it out and got it up to 85kmh on Springvale Rd and it got a bit freaky so I slowed down after I hit 85 and it felt like it had more to go and that was the only time I have done that.

Speed wobble?

https://cyclingtips.com/2020/07/bicycle ... stop-them/

I can't help you out regarding e-bike laws.

[MichaelB]

I'm sure others will chime in re specifics on ebike laws and regs.

Just like many other 'things', just because they are sold, doesn't mean they can legally be used.

Essentially though, if you have a bike that is not legal, which your clearly is, it means that you are driving/riding a vehicle that is unlicensed and unregistered, which whether you cause or are involved in an accident means significant penalties and lots of hassle.

I understand your situation a bit (from what you have mentioned) and can sympathise, but by the current law, your bike is highly, illegal to use and operate on the road, regardless of whether you go over the 25km/hr or not. Simple.

[find_bruce]

The relevant legislation is Victorian Road Rules which picks up the definitions from the Vehicle Standard (Australian Design Rule – Definitions and Vehicle Categories) 2005.

Short version: In Victoria any vehicle with a motor putting out more than 250 watts is not a bicycle

Slightly longer version: 250 watts must cut out when the vehicle reaches 25 km/h or the rider stops pedaling. 200 watts in Victoria does not have these restrictions.

The long version:

bicycle means a vehicle with 2 or more wheels that is built to be propelled partly or wholly by human power through a belt, chain or gears (whether or not it has an auxiliary motor), and—
(a) includes a pedicab, penny-farthing and tricycle; and
(b) includes a power-assisted pedal cycle within the meaning of vehicle standards, as amended from time to time, determined under section 7 of the Motor Vehicle Standards Act 1989 of the Commonwealth; but
(c) does not include an electric personal transporter, a scooter, wheelchair, wheeled recreational device, wheeled toy, or any vehicle with an auxiliary motor capable of generating a power output over 200 watts (whether or not the motor is operating), other than a vehicle referred to in paragraph (b);

POWER-ASSISTED PEDAL CYCLE - a vehicle, designed to be propelled through a mechanism primarily using human power, that:
(a) meets the following criteria:

1. is equipped with one or more auxiliary propulsion electric motors;
2. cannot be propelled exclusively by the motor or motors;
3. has a combined maximum power output not exceeding 200 watts;
4. has a ‘Tare Mass’ (including batteries) of less than 35 kg; and
5. has a height-adjustable seat; or

(b) is an 'Electrically Power-Assisted Cycle';

ELECTRICALLY POWER-ASSISTED CYCLE (EPAC) - an electrically-powered pedal cycle with a maximum continued rated power of 250 watts, of which the output is:
(a) progressively reduced as the cycle’s speed increases; and
(b) cut off, where:

1. the cycle reaches a speed of 25 km/h; or
2. the cyclist stops pedalling.

The consequences. A vehicle with 2 wheels & a 3kW motor is an electric motorbike, which requires registration which requires compliance with various standards (including lights, turn signals, speedo etc), a drivers licence with a motorbike endorsement, motorcycle helmet. The police do charge people for using these vehicles on public roads, but I don't know the numbers & couldn't comment on whether it is likely or not.

If you are given an infringement notice by police, this usually includes

• riding a miniaturised motor cycle (infringement notice $909 max court fine $3,634)
• use of vehicle not complying with standards (max court fine $909) or not safe & roadworthy (max court fine $3,635)
• ride unlicenced (infringement notice $909 max court fine $43,618)
• ride without motorbike helmet (infringement notice $363, max court fine $1,817)

The police can also impound the vehicle under the banner of hoon driving offences

[uart]

they are very practical in my opinion and really fun to ride why do we have a restriction of anything over 250w apparently

Because E-bikes are allowed to ride on shared paths and in some states also on footpaths. Understandably many pedestrians are not too keen on sharing the path with unregistered unlicensed motor bike riders.

As findbruce points out, you're up for over $3000 fines just for riding it on the road (even if doing nothing else wrong other than being there). If however you were to injure someone while riding unlicensed on your unregistered motorbike, then legally you are going to be in a world of hurt.

I have a disability and basically cannot pedal so the 350w ebike was useless to me

Just to clarify, does this mean that you can only use a "throttle control" rather than pedal assist? Because in that case you are limited to only 200 Watts. (And there has been some talk about them wanting to phase out throttle controlled ebikes entirely.)

TBH, if you can't pedal at all then you might be better off (at least legally) to start looking at mobility scooters.

[warthog1]

Great comprehensive post find_bruce.
Thanks

[find_bruce]

TBH, if you can't pedal at all then you might be better off (at least legally) to start looking at mobility scooters.

You are correct however it is unlikely to satisfy any "need for speed" in that mobility scooters are intended to be a substitute for walking and while there is no power restriction they are limited to 10 km/h.

[RonK]

A 350w e-bike that can’t climb steep hills? It must have been a rubbish e-bike. That claim can’t be relied on to justify an illegal vehicle.

My 250w e-mtb climbs very steep hills with ease. It’s no exception, there are many other e-bikes with similar climbing capabilities available.

Without question this vehicle is illegal in any state in Australia. In addition to the charges and penalties already mentioned, you have no third party insurance - if you should be involved in an incident that causes injury to another person the potential financial costs are massive.

[OnTrackZeD]

Its a motorbike

The fines you are up for
No reg
No roadworthy
No license
No motorbike helmet
Not driving on a road

They add up to about $2,500 but yea stick to 25km/hr I'm sure they'll take that into consideration.

[AUbicycles]

To have the skills to put this together is pretty good. For private property then it can be used. With respect to the laws, there is no easy way around this. For commuting / transport a scooter or motorbike is the option as it covers your license, vehicle registration the basic liability.

It is fair to say that police targeting of ebike is not big and people can get away with it, but the moment that anything happens, even if someone hit you, then you have problems.

[ColinOldnCranky]

Regardless of any disability, you're post does not stand up to scrutiny.

Did you really not consider that a 3,000W ebike may be illegal? I would have thought that at the least it was worth checking. So any expense that you ahve incurred for a useless bike is on you, not on the regulations.

And how do you, under the nefarious belief that what is on the internet implies some form of honesty, conclude in thatbeleif that 1000W is legal, rationally make the jump to 3000W is legal?

And why 3000W for hill climbing when, I imagine, a fraction of that is all that is needed to climb those hills? Why not 30,000W. Or 50,000W?

As I said, none of stands up to scrutiny.

And as "There is no way (you are) going to stop riding this thing", why bother even asking us? I can only assume that you either want us to admire you technical prowess or you are seeking our unnecessary approval for you bad choices.

My wife is significantly disabled. Yet she does not limit her consideration to herself excluding the rest of the community.

Should we be thankful that you "hardly ever go over 25kmh on it" and "the only time (you) have is when (you) finished building it to test it out and got it up to 85kmh on (the public) Springvale Rd"

All I am reading in you rpost is "I want", "I don't care about anyone else", "I'm special and rules do not apply to me" and "I have no need to support my shortcomings with any logical reasoning". Buy a motor bike with all the limits that than entails and stay off the paths.

Adding to find_bruce's listed consequences, you should add that if you injure or maim yourself you will get no compensation from government third party insurance trust that your vehicle rego's pay for in any state in Australia. And, should you injure or maim an innocent party, the insurance trust will go after your house, your car, your wages and even your precious e-bike to offset their payout to such victims.

Do us all a favour and stay off the roads and, even more importantly, the paths.

[Mububban]

Realistically, if you're not going over 25kmh, you're unlikely to attract much attention from the cops, or other road/path users.

But as mentioned comprehensively above, if you're caught up in an incident and someone scrutinises your bike, you're probably in for a very rough time of it legally.

[zebee]

The consequences. A vehicle with 2 wheels & a 3kW motor is an electric motorbike, which requires registration which requires compliance with various standards (including lights, turn signals, speedo etc), a drivers licence with a motorbike endorsement, motorcycle helmet. The police do charge people for using these vehicles on public roads, but I don't know the numbers & couldn't comment on whether it is likely or not.

Just to be an annoying pedant...

it doesn't need turn signals or a speedo unless it was built after I think 1980 (or maybe 1977) when those got into the ADRs. You do need to signal turns and you do need to keep to speed limits but you only need what is in the ADRs current at the time of manufacture.

Given the OP's bike was made well after that then they will need all of the above but my 1973 and 1976 motorcycles don't need those. (The 2 '73's have them although the speedos are definitely for regulatory purposes only[1], the '76 doesn't have either. And has happily passed its roadworthy inspection every year)

I also note that if the motorcycle is not on a frame with a VIN, it will need an engineer's certificate which (when I looked into it for a special I was contemplating building) was well north of $2000 and that was some years ago.

If the OP can't pedal at all then the bike is currently illegal anyway. I'm surprised it can't get up a hill on throttle at 250W given my 250W trike at over 20kg weight plus trailer and shopping (another 15kg at least) plus me (Won't see 70kg again...) can go up Melville St on throttle only. (The last statement may or may not correspond with the trike in current state, it was pre pedelec only days)

Sure, I wasn't going fast, your average jogger would pass me, but it was getting up the hill.

Zebee

[1] They are Italian. The revcounters work fine, who cares about speed? You go as fast around the corners as you can and the bits between the corners are irrelevant...

[zebee]

Realistically, if you're not going over 25kmh, you're unlikely to attract much attention from the cops, or other road/path users.

But as mentioned comprehensively above, if you're caught up in an incident and someone scrutinises your bike, you're probably in for a very rough time of it legally.

When looking for some case law on this I found on on Austlii where someone was going on a shared path and was hit by a car backing out.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewd ... h=au/cases

THe bike was not legal, and it was found that the rider didn't know the bike was overpowered and therefore illegal. This was a civil case and so they are looking at negliegence. How fast the rider was going and was that too fast for the conditions so he did not have time to avoid the crash or was the car driver going too fast and so the rider couldn't have avoided it if they were riding at a reasonable speed.

The driver's lawyers said the bike was illegally fast. Expert witnesses tested the remains of the bike... (front hub was not in best condition having tboned a car) to see what they thought the speed could get to and did a bunch of calculations and looked at the damage to the car and disagreed as to whether it was 15kmh or 20kmh.

From our point of view in this thread, the issue is that while the bike was illegal it was the speed it was doing that was important in a civil case to determine liability. Not whether it was legal but whether it was sensible for the conditions. A rider on an unpowered bike hammering that shared path at 30kmh would have been found negligent.
But... the judge did say that a reasonable person would have checked if the bike was legal, and thus the plaintiff did not take all reasonable care for his own safety. He ended up getting his damages reduced by 25%. Not clear from the remarks on negligence if the illegal bike was the main reason but it was mentioned as a reason.

SO if you are riding along on your 1000W illegal bike and some doofus in an SUV collects you for a hood ornament and you end up in a wheelchair.... you might find that the mere fact it was illegal is contributory negligence. If you were going too fast for the conditions as well then you may find your payout substantially reduced.

Or if you are at fault you might find your insurer expects you to pay the percentage of your contributory negligence. read your fine print!

[Mr Purple]

I’m still getting my head around 350W not being enough power.

I hold 37 KOMs. 23 of them are at less than 350W…

[antigee]

coming to a court near me soon:
https://www.9news.com.au/national/bike- ... 17ff07ba36

An electric bike rider has allegedly crashed into a young boy in Melbourne's outer east, leaving the child with facial injuries that required hospital treatment......

Police arrested a 42-year-old Ringwood man last night over the incident......
.....He was released from custody but is expected to be charged on summons with conduct endangering serious injury, unlicensed riding, unregistered riding , drive in a manner dangerous and reckless cause injury.
The man's bike was seized as part of the investigation.

[queequeg]

Essentially what you have is something like this

https://stealthelectricbikes.com/stealth-b-52/

These are made in Australia and promoted for riding on trails, but as far as I know, they can’t be registered, hence they can’t be ridden on any public roads or trails and are good for private property only. They have ridiculous top speeds and the pedals on them are essentially for decoration.

Why not just get a road registrable electric motorbike and ride on the road? Is it just that you want to ride it on shared bicycle paths, or don’t want the extra costs that go with registration and insurance? A 3kw Ebike is just crazy.

[AUbicycles]

Cranky, settle down mate, I think asking is good as. To be fair, the laws are not obvious. Many here know them (sonewhat) as we take the time but if you ask a person from the general public, the limits will not be known and you have to rely on what you can find out.

[Mububban]

Essentially what you have is something like this

https://stealthelectricbikes.com/stealth-b-52/

I saw one of these while driving to work, I looked left and saw one on the footpath, moving faster than me. I was doing 50kmh in morning traffic and he easily went past the cars on the road. Not pedalling of course.

[warthog1]

To be fair, the laws are not obvious. Many here know them (sonewhat) as we take the time but if you ask a person from the general public, the limits will not be known and you have to rely on what you can find out.

Sure Christopher, but if you are going to take the considerable time and effort to purchase the componentry and then construct your own electric bike, would you not do a 5 minute google search first, if complying with the law was a priority?
The laws are not hidden.

[find_bruce]

Just to be an annoying pedant...

it doesn't need turn signals or a speedo unless it was built after I think 1980 (or maybe 1977) when those got into the ADRs. You do need to signal turns and you do need to keep to speed limits but you only need what is in the ADRs current at the time of manufacture.

Given the OP's bike was made well after that then they will need all of the above but my 1973 and 1976 motorcycles don't need those. (The 2 '73's have them although the speedos are definitely for regulatory purposes only[1], the '76 doesn't have either. And has happily passed its roadworthy inspection every year)

I also note that if the motorcycle is not on a frame with a VIN, it will need an engineer's certificate which (when I looked into it for a special I was contemplating building) was well north of $2000 and that was some years ago.

If the OP can't pedal at all then the bike is currently illegal anyway. I'm surprised it can't get up a hill on throttle at 250W given my 250W trike at over 20kg weight plus trailer and shopping (another 15kg at least) plus me (Won't see 70kg again...) can go up Melville St on throttle only. (The last statement may or may not correspond with the trike in current state, it was pre pedelec only days)

Sure, I wasn't going fast, your average jogger would pass me, but it was getting up the hill.

Zebee

[1] They are Italian. The revcounters work fine, who cares about speed? You go as fast around the corners as you can and the bits between the corners are irrelevant...

Pedantic? ok. Correct? absolutely! Annoying ? Not you zebee. As the proud owner of two oil leaks that are waiting for the rust to set in, I am familiar with the issue - my 1960 car didn't come with seatbelts & while fitting them in a safe way is easy, doing so legally is highly problematic.

[uart]

I have a disability and basically cannot pedal so the 350w ebike was useless to me and the PAS system was very hard for me and it simply could not get me up most of the hills around here.

It sounds like you would need to choose the right type of kit, but it should be possible to build a legal one that works for you.

Firstly you need to consider the type of assist, torque sensing or simple cadence sensing. For most cyclists the torque sensing type is preferable, because properly implemented they can give a nice proportional response that feels very natural. In your case however you'd want the simpler cadence sensing only type, where assist kicks in whenever you're turning the cranks, regardless of how much pressure you're applying.

This is a better idea than a throttle control for two reasons.

1. When you're pedaling it doesn't draw attention to you and police usually won't be interested in checking whether everything is strictly legal or not. Guys racing around on throttle only really stand out as likely candidates for being illegal. When the police finally do start cracking down on this stuff (and I think it's only a matter of time until they do) then those guys will be the first ones taken out.

2. It's just inherently safer, as almost everyone (no matter how little training) will automatically stop pedaling in a panic situation, whereas not everyone will have the presence of mind to release a throttle.

The other thing to consider about implementation is choice of "bottom bracket drive" (aka mid-drive) versus "hub drive". In your case then you probably want a mid drive system with a good set of low end gearing up back. The advantage of mid-drive is that the motor power gets transferred through the chain gearing, which allows for the gearing to step up the torque just the same as it does with the rider's own pedaling torque. Mid-drive with a nice big cluster up the back should get you up most hills without any trouble, albeit at reduced speed.

[redsonic]

Don't forget the OP said he is unable to pedal

[fat and old]

Hello
I purchased a 350w ebike online about 2 years ago

I spent a lot of money building this 3000w ebike and I'm aware that 25kmh is the speed limit on ebikes so I rarely go over 25kmh.

I figured that if they sell ebikes that are 1000w online then they must be legal which is why I built this 3000w ebike.

You researched on line to purchase
You “know” 25kmh is the speed limit on ebikes

I think Colin has a point. Not that I care tbh, so long as you stay off the shared paths. You want to use it on the road, go for broke I say.

[g-boaf]

Don't forget the OP said he is unable to pedal

That doesn’t mean you need 85km/h ability and the power to get it to that level.

That 85 was the speed the OP claimed to have reached. I get that speed going down from the top of Cime de la Bonette and that’s a really huge fast descent. It’s not a speed I regularly go at and nor do I really want to do that often.