3000w ebike and the law in Victoria?

[AUbicycles]

Fair points, but even stealth won’t say you can’t really ride their ‘ebikes’ on the road.

On the one hand the law says ignorance is no excuse, but you have to consider legalities in the first place and be active to seek answers… there are plenty of other situations where the answer or impulse to get these remain concealed.

Even having the OP asking here and the information on the legality of own-construction high powered ebikes can help others who are researching.

[uart]

Don't forget the OP said he is unable to pedal

Not really. He said he struggled with a previous pedal assist implementation, but I suspect that was due to the pedal force required rather than the simple act of just turning the pedals over (which is how easy you can make it with some cadence sensing implementations). I did ask op for clarification on that point but he was not forthcoming.

[zebee]

Firstly you need to consider the type of assist, torque sensing or simple cadence sensing. For most cyclists the torque sensing type is preferable, because properly implemented they can give a nice proportional response that feels very natural. In your case however you'd want the simpler cadence sensing only type, where assist kicks in whenever you're turning the cranks, regardless of how much pressure you're applying.

I found when riding Mum's upright trike that a cadence sensor that came on with pedal movement was difficult to manage.

Especially at slower speeds there was no modulation. I managed OK but the thing was a bit of a worry in the places upright trikes are: anything with a camber! Mum found it way too scary even at the low gearing and slow speeds of that trike and I disabled it to turn it to throttle only which was much more controllable.

For the OP's requirements something that just needs pedals turning to have the motor on but had a throttle for controllability might be the go although I have no idea if such a thing is available. It won't lessen the civil liability in case of an injury crash if the motor is in itself illegal but is probably close enough to the pedelec requirement to not add to the illegality and so the civil liability. I believe a lot of ebikes now have a throttle mode for "walking" that cuts out at about 6kmh so you can take off on the throttle up hill while you get your pedalling going which the OP would need.

I wasn't worried in Mum's case because she was riding on the footpath anyway so already incredibly illegal. I figured if anything happened I'd argue that the thing went not much faster than a mobility scooter which is what it was being used as. I don't think she saw more than 10kmh an hour on it before she bottled and she was usually travelling no faster than my quick walk. (I got it up to about 20kmh pedalling the low geared short cranks like a maniac!)

Zebee

[Ebikingmelb]

Thank you for your reply guys I'm honestly overwhelmed by the amount of things you have told me.

To clarify yes the PAS system was basically impossible for me as I do not have the strength in my legs to push the pedals it's very hard for me.

Also Ronk said my first ebike must have been rubbish it was not rubbish I paid almost $2000 for it and I'm not sure where you live Ronk but it's quite obvious you don't live in the Dandenong ranges like my self because any one who is familiar with the Dandenong ranges knows how many hills we have up here and some are very steep I live in sassafras...

Also I cannot get a motorcycle licence or a car licence as I have Epilepsy which happened after I was hit by a car as a pedestrian as a result of my ABI (acquired brain injury) and also very serious leg injuries.

And for the person who said I should look at mobility scooters they do not realise how much that would impact my mental health as it's hard enough mentally for me with my injuries at my age I'm only 34 and riding my ebike is everything to me it gives me a lot of joy it makes me so happy and I feel very free when I'm riding it and the thought of not riding my ebike ever again saddens me..

As for Cranky Collin your name says it all I clicked on your name and going by your replies to other people's posts you rarely have anything nice to say to people I'm not sure if you use this website to let off steam or a just a very difficult negative rude person.

I would not enjoy knowing you personally as you sound like the kind of person I distance myself from who goes out of there way to put people down and jam your opinion down people's throat and seems to get off doing it.
I did not post this for you to admire my skills as building a ebike is not that hard if you know what your doing and my bike is far from useless Its very reliable and will take me any where that I want to go and has enough power to get me up any hill that I come across and is probably better than yours it cost me a fortune to build this thing and it's also foldable.

I am very considerate as I nearly lost my life when I was 17 years old and have never been the same since and as a result of my accident i have chronic PTSD and would hate to injure somebody on the bike track or the footpath hence why rarely go over the speed limit I would never forgive myself if I hurt somebody as I know first hand how much an accident can change a life.
I simply enjoy riding my bike everywhere just looking at the trees and flowers while I'm riding I also enjoy fresh air and the breeze on my skin.

If I didn't care and just thought about myself and thought I was special as you stated Cranky Collin then I would not stick to the speed limit and ride around like a maniac which I don't do I'm very cautious on my ebike and would hate to hurt somebody I'm a very safe rider and have never crashed into anybody or anything and am quite happy just cruising at 20 KPH.

I really appreciate all your posts guys apart from Cranky Collin I will continue to ride my ebike as it's the best thing that I have ever owned in my entire life and I would take it to heaven with me if I could..

I'm now a lot more educated on ebike laws and will always ride safely and will continue doing so.

Stay safe everybody and thank you for taking the time to reply to my post.

Take care

[fat and old]

If you're up in Sassafras then I'm guessing most of your riding is on the road? Not familiar with the path network up there? Or footpaths maybe?

Given the background, a little compassion is in order I'd say. That does go two ways, and FWIW I've personally found Colin to be harsh but fair in most everything he comments on. The older you get the more life experience you gather and your attitudes do change based on that accumulation of experience. e.g. it's still hard to believe you can research and buy on line, know there's an issue based on a 25kmh limit yet not know it was illegally powered to begin with.

I still say go for broke on the roads, but add be careful given the epilepsy issues. If you're limited to footpaths, be extra careful. And enjoy, so long as you're not making life unenjoyable for others there shouldn't be an issue.

Oh, and your initial issue....servicing your bike. You learned how to build it, take the time and learn how to service it. It's a rewarding project. Saves $$$ too.

[MichaelB]

Thanks Ebikingmelb for the added details, it actually adds a lot of context to your situation which makes it quite different.

Sounds like you've been through and still going through quite a lot, hopefully it gets better.

Whilst I can only partially understand your situation (only going by what has been presented), you still need to be very aware of the potential issues you face if you do get pulled over and/or if something goes wrong.

MB

[warthog1]

Thank you for your reply guys I'm honestly overwhelmed by the amount of things you have told me.

To clarify yes the PAS system was basically impossible for me as I do not have the strength in my legs to push the pedals it's very hard for me.

Also Ronk said my first ebike must have been rubbish it was not rubbish I paid almost $2000 for it and I'm not sure where you live Ronk but it's quite obvious you don't live in the Dandenong ranges like my self because any one who is familiar with the Dandenong ranges knows how many hills we have up here and some are very steep I live in sassafras...

Also I cannot get a motorcycle licence or a car licence as I have Epilepsy which happened after I was hit by a car as a pedestrian as a result of my ABI (acquired brain injury) and also very serious leg injuries.

And for the person who said I should look at mobility scooters they do not realise how much that would impact my mental health as it's hard enough mentally for me with my injuries at my age I'm only 34 and riding my ebike is everything to me it gives me a lot of joy it makes me so happy and I feel very free when I'm riding it and the thought of not riding my ebike ever again saddens me..

As for Cranky Collin your name says it all I clicked on your name and going by your replies to other people's posts you rarely have anything nice to say to people I'm not sure if you use this website to let off steam or a just a very difficult negative rude person.

I would not enjoy knowing you personally as you sound like the kind of person I distance myself from who goes out of there way to put people down and jam your opinion down people's throat and seems to get off doing it.
I did not post this for you to admire my skills as building a ebike is not that hard if you know what your doing and my bike is far from useless Its very reliable and will take me any where that I want to go and has enough power to get me up any hill that I come across and is probably better than yours it cost me a fortune to build this thing and it's also foldable.

I am very considerate as I nearly lost my life when I was 17 years old and have never been the same since and as a result of my accident i have chronic PTSD and would hate to injure somebody on the bike track or the footpath hence why rarely go over the speed limit I would never forgive myself if I hurt somebody as I know first hand how much an accident can change a life.
I simply enjoy riding my bike everywhere just looking at the trees and flowers while I'm riding I also enjoy fresh air and the breeze on my skin.

If I didn't care and just thought about myself and thought I was special as you stated Cranky Collin then I would not stick to the speed limit and ride around like a maniac which I don't do I'm very cautious on my ebike and would hate to hurt somebody I'm a very safe rider and have never crashed into anybody or anything and am quite happy just cruising at 20 KPH.

I really appreciate all your posts guys apart from Cranky Collin I will continue to ride my ebike as it's the best thing that I have ever owned in my entire life and I would take it to heaven with me if I could..

I'm now a lot more educated on ebike laws and will always ride safely and will continue doing so.

Stay safe everybody and thank you for taking the time to reply to my post.

Take care

Building an ebike is not that hard you say.
I guess where Colin is coming from is that determining the legal requirements of an ebike is easier than building one.

https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=ebike+laws+Victoria

VicRoads at the top of the page.

I had the same opinion too.

Colin is a unicycle rider who has spent a fair bit of time on pathways.
I am guessing his manner is coloured by some of the behaviour he has encountered.

[g-boaf]

I really appreciate all your posts guys apart from Cranky Collin I will continue to ride my ebike as it's the best thing that I have ever owned in my entire life and I would take it to heaven with me if I could..

I'm now a lot more educated on ebike laws and will always ride safely and will continue doing so.

Stay safe everybody and thank you for taking the time to reply to my post.

Take care

You can always use the "add foe" feature.

Sounds like you are going through one heck of a rough time. Take care out there.

But still, why do you need 3000w and 85km/h ability.

Me with a motor that does say 265w for 20 minutes yesterday (my legs) can still go very quickly anyway, more than enough for most cases. So I don’t see why 11 times as much power is necessary.

[RonK]

Also Ronk said my first ebike must have been rubbish it was not rubbish I paid almost $2000 for it and I'm not sure where you live Ronk but it's quite obvious you don't live in the Dandenong ranges like my self because any one who is familiar with the Dandenong ranges knows how many hills we have up here and some are very steep I live in sassafras...

Yes, $2000 buys a very basic e-bike. Mine was more than double that, and it's nothing special as e-bikes go. There are plenty that cost double my bike again.

Where I live is irrelevant, but there are plenty of steep hills near my home. My bike will take me up very steep hills, grades in excess of 20% with ease, and I ride them regularly.

And I bought it because I had severe osteoarthritis in my knees, and could not apply much pressure to the pedals. But it has a torque sensing drive system, as is fitted to many quality e-bikes, which adjusts the level of power assistance accordingly.

And yes, it does all this while generating only 250 watts.

[ColinOldnCranky]

Actually I am much as many on this forum are and far from cranky.

Unlike so many echo chamber forums, we do not club together to blindly support each other gripes. The gripes and suggestions need to stand scrutiny, which so far your's have not.

Also I cannot get a motorcycle licence or a car licence as I have Epilepsy which happened after I was hit by a car as a pedestrian as a result of my ABI (acquired brain injury) and also very serious leg injuries.

Now, instead of attacking the messenger, would you care to explain to us all why, if you are deemed a risk to others (by virtue of possible epileptic siezure I assume) on a motorbike, then why is transferring that risk from mopeds hitting cars and the like to an e-bike of exceptional and unnecessary power and speed taking out vulnerable peds and cyclists?

As I said at the my original post, you're post does not stand up to scrutiny.

You might leave this forum as we will, unpredictably, show reason where others are just add supportive noise to echo chambers. However. if you stick around, you will get more value here than from other forums.

And, as far as legal matters go, the accumulated knowledge on this forum is quite exceptional. Stick around.

[1Rowdy1]

Sounds like you know it is illegal and just don't care, so why post in the first place?

[10speedsemiracer]

A couple of observations.

Your statement that you live in the Dandenongs (let's assume Upwey-Tecoma-Belgrave region as a point of reference) followed by an admission of an 85kmh blast down Springvale Rd, indicates that you range far and wide on this creation. This is in contrast to the picture inferred of a necessary means of travel. That's fine, but lends credence to Colin's response/s.

Your initial post paints a picture of this bike as "the only option" for your own mobility. I would contend this is not fully accurate. (Public Transport, subsidized Taxi fares etc).

You make no mention of the donor bike that has had 3Kw (4.2hp) bolted onto it.
If it's what I'm assuming it to be, it's some form of low-mid range hardtail MTB. Probably rim-braked, maybe even a mech disc set up (an assumption based on the home-built eBikes that show up and/or get turned away from the Workshop). Which means it likely doesn't have the handling or braking margins of safety for the power you've fitted. Put it this way. If you front up to the workshop with this bike, I'm going to decline to work on it, or at the very least be extremely reluctant.
The issue being that if I'm the last muppet to touch it, anything that goes wrong thereafter (in the mind of the owner) is my fault. No matter that you only asked the shop to replace a tube. If something fails, to the uninitiated, it's the shop's fault ("you should have noticed it, you should have advised me that the brakes were inadequate yada yada yada...". It's a question of implied warranty. I know this because it's happened before.

Being an illegal build, it likely doesn't have indicators. Or a brake light. Or any means of identification.

And yet it has the same power as this :

.

Whilst I can appreciate your context as stated, and even sympathise with your situation, the leap to a 3Kw eBike is one that defies logic. I'm completely with Colin on this, in that this home build has no place on a road or a bike path, and especially not on a shared path. I know the area very well, and pre-Covid it was a part of my regular riding loop. Yes it's hilly. But also, yes a good 250w eBike will handle it with ease. Your issue, from the sound of it, wasn't that a 250w eBike couldn't hack it. Rather, the cheap 250w eBike you'd purchased couldn't hack it.

One factor not covered is the torque this monster is putting out. At 3000w we'll assume it's one of the Cyclone motors or something similar, running 72v and wires everywhere. These things generate upwards of 150Nm of torque....which you've bolted to something not designed for anything like that. In my experience, it's not a question of if but when.

I feel that some pictures of the bike in question should be posted in this thread, which would allow the Forum members to provide you with some valuable feedback on the build.

[ColinOldnCranky]

Colin is a unicycle rider who has spent a fair bit of time on pathways.
I am guessing his manner is coloured by some of the behaviour he has encountered.

Thanks for the support.

However, for the record few people take offence at an aging unicyclist so I get better treated than most on this forum. That's by motorists, cyclists AND peds. But yes, I do see and am concerned with the stuff that regular riders encounter.

When I was able to ride a regular, there were fewer cyclists on the road and motorists had not yet learned to be tribal. I don't think I ever felt threatened or bullied. Not ever.

[warthog1]

Thanks for the support.

However, for the record few people take offence at an aging unicyclist so I get better treated than most on this forum. That's by motorists, cyclists AND peds. But yes, I do see and am concerned with the stuff that regular riders encounter.

When I was able to ride a regular, there were fewer cyclists on the road and motorists had not yet learned to be tribal. I don't think I ever felt threatened or bullied. Not ever.

No worries.

Things have changed for the worse then.

It still is a small minority, but they are unpleasant at best.

[tpcycle]

Where I live is irrelevant, but there are plenty of steep hills near my home. My bike will take me up very steep hills, grades in excess of 20% with ease, and I ride them regularly.

And yes, it does all this while generating only 250 watts.

I had a (now stolen) crank drive ebike with 250 watts that really struggled to get up hills. The motor got very hot and made bad creaky noises. Maybe it wasn't designed properly for hills but there is no way it would have made it up 20% hills without me doing a lot of pedaling.

[RonK]

Where I live is irrelevant, but there are plenty of steep hills near my home. My bike will take me up very steep hills, grades in excess of 20% with ease, and I ride them regularly.

And yes, it does all this while generating only 250 watts.

I had a (now stolen) crank drive ebike with 250 watts that really struggled to get up hills. The motor got very hot and made bad creaky noises. Maybe it wasn't designed properly for hills but there is no way it would have made it up 20% hills without me doing a lot of pedaling.

Buy a cheap substandard e-bike, particularly the type of stuff sold on the web and quite likely it will perform poorly.

Whoever stole yours probably did you a favour.

[amyannick]

I know nothing about e-bikes or the laws governing them, but I do know a small amount about physics and motors so I can try and guess why people see a lot of variation in hill climbing ability on equally rated motors.

To climb a hill you need *power*. The power output of a motor (watts) is equal to volts x amps of current supplied. So a motor plugged into the wall at home receiving 20amps outputs (240 x 20) = 4800 watts. This is likely NOT what the wattage quoted on e-bike motors is. If you ran a motor at the maximum number of amps it would probably overheat. So the quoted number might be something like the amount of power that can be supplied over a reasonable amount of time without overheating the system. But the motor could operate above this power for short amounts of time when needed.

What does this mean? It means you could have two 250 watt motors whose actual max power output differs very significantly (double, triple). The motor with a lower max power will go slower up hills than the motor with the higher max power, they would both most likely be operating above the 250 watts they are rated for.

Power determines how quickly you can get up a hill, however there is another factor: torque. Torque is rotational force. Basically, it is how hard the motor is pushing. This will determine how steep a hill you can climb.

Of course there are other very significant factors, including bike and rider weight that would make a difference.

All that said, stopping a heavy e-bike riding along at 85km/h would require a scary amount of force applied to whatever brakes OP has fitted to their bike and I agree with 10speed that the acceleration generated by the motor is also concerning. All in all I am pretty glad this thing isn't buzzing around the streets where I live, though I do have sympathy for OP who has clearly found something that works for them when other options didn't.

[amyannick]

Isn't the solution here for OP to get a scooter or motorcycle? That way everything is legal and insured etc.

[MichaelB]

Isn't the solution here for OP to get a scooter or motorcycle? That way everything is legal and insured etc.

Already mentioned that due to medical conditions arising from previous accident, that he cannot.

However, as pointed out by others, what he is riding (and built) is effectively classed as an electric motorbike, and one that probably doesn't meet any safety standards, nor is it registered, and hence insured.

[amyannick]

Already mentioned that due to medical conditions arising from previous accident, that he cannot.

Ah, I missed that. What he is riding now is for many purposes essentially a motorcycle/scooter (as others have pointed out) ...

[tpcycle]

Where I live is irrelevant, but there are plenty of steep hills near my home. My bike will take me up very steep hills, grades in excess of 20% with ease, and I ride them regularly.

And yes, it does all this while generating only 250 watts.

I had a (now stolen) crank drive ebike with 250 watts that really struggled to get up hills. The motor got very hot and made bad creaky noises. Maybe it wasn't designed properly for hills but there is no way it would have made it up 20% hills without me doing a lot of pedaling.

Buy a cheap substandard e-bike, particularly the type of stuff sold on the web and quite likely it will perform poorly.

Whoever stole yours probably did you a favour.

Yeah, that sounds fair. It was a Gazelle with a Bosch motor than cost $4000 from a B&M store. Guess I should pay more and go with better brands next time. Oh and BTW, the thief did not do me any favours by stealing the bicycle or all the other stuff they stole, but thanks for the thoughtful empathy anyway.

[Mr Purple]

You seem very angry in general. And I'm not sure you're actually here looking for answers. But I do understand some of your anger now you have outlined your circumstances.

I'm not sure what logic led you to think 'this 250W e-bike won't go up hills, I need one with 12 times as much power'. However suspect it may have been 'well I need something illegal, and might as well go all the way'.

Please ride sensibly and try not to kill yourself or anyone else. That's all we can really add in this situation.

[g-boaf]

I had a (now stolen) crank drive ebike with 250 watts that really struggled to get up hills. The motor got very hot and made bad creaky noises. Maybe it wasn't designed properly for hills but there is no way it would have made it up 20% hills without me doing a lot of pedaling.

Buy a cheap substandard e-bike, particularly the type of stuff sold on the web and quite likely it will perform poorly.

Whoever stole yours probably did you a favour.

Yeah, that sounds fair. It was a Gazelle with a Bosch motor than cost $4000 from a B&M store. Guess I should pay more and go with better brands next time. Oh and BTW, the thief did not do me any favours by stealing the bicycle or all the other stuff they stole, but thanks for the thoughtful empathy anyway.

They certainly don't look like a "cheap substandard e-bike" as Ron described with such bluntness:

https://www.gazellebikes.com/en-us/models

I'd be pretty steamed up if I lost something like that.

[nomilknosugar]

I was just thinking about the 85km/h event.

Let's assume the total mass of the system as being 100kg. The bike + motor + battery + rider has a total mass of 100kg. The maximum speed reported was 85km/h which is 23.61 m/s. Let's assume the rider slowed down to 35km/h which is 9.72m/s. Difference in kinetic energy is ½m(vi² - vf²) = 23.148kJ.

That kinetic energy gets transformed into heat energy through the brakes. Let's assume disc brakes. Q = CmK where Q is heat energy (Joules); C is specific heat of the disc (Joules/kg/Kelvin); m is mass of disc (kg); K is temperature rise in disc (Kelvin). Let's further assume that the disc is probably cast iron (or a composite) which probably has a specific heat of 500J/kg/K (or more). The disc mass is probably 0.5kg (maybe more?). The temperature rise is then 92K. If the bike has dual discs then temperature rise should be approximately halved (46K) if distributed equally, but that is ignoring natural air cooling.

Kelvin is degrees Celsius + 273 (27°C = 300K).

Does the e-bike have regen brakes?

A final assumption, if the rider slows from 85km/h to 35km/h in 23s then the required braking power is 23.148kJ / 23s = 1006W. That's hot!

P (Power) = F (Force) x V (Velocity). F is the total opposition force (air resistance + rolling resistance + gravitational force) acting on the rider. Air resistance tends to increase with the cube of velocity (V³). Rolling resistance tends to be linear with V. V is the velocity (m/s) that the rider wants to hold constant. P is the required power (W, J/s or Nm/s [they're all equivalent]) to hold a constant velocity.

[ColinOldnCranky]

Things have changed for the worse then.

It still is a small minority, but they are unpleasant at best.

Yes, massively. The narrative of annoying selfish riders and annoying dangerous drivers almost never existed back around the eighties.

I think you are being a little generous in "small minority". A minority maybe. But SMALL? No. If someone mentions something annoying about a cyclist that day, I find that I am usually a lone voice in presenting an alternative view whereas those observers who hold adverse beliefs on road space, registration, breaking road laws are plentiful.