Why do too many e-bike riders demand speed?

[BrisBoy]

This is the difficulty. 25k is so comically low that virtually everyone removes the limiter.

I've been thinking about this one. I disagree that 25kmh is comically low. It's roughly 4 times walking pace, 2 to 3 times running pace.

For sure, it's easy for fit and motivated riders to comfortably exceed 25kmh, cruising 30 plus is very common. But that's not the market I see the e-bikes aimed at. This forum is populated by the enthusiast riders to whom 25kmh is slow, and I think that skews perception.

The average non-sport rider I see getting around my area are doing 20 if lucky, sometimes much less. (One group ride I went on had an average moving speed of 7kmh. Yes, 7.)

Put a fit enthusiast on a legal e-bike and yep, it feels slow and that the e-kit isn't doing anything for them. Put a novice rider on an e-bike and very soon the bike is travelling much faster than the rider - I know of several riders having accidents as a result of the speed and power available, and these were 250 watt speed limited kits with brake cut out's etc - complete with lengthy hospital stays as a result.

What's the right answer? I don't know. But it strikes me that the 250W and 25kmh limits are practical and sensible compromises. 250W more than doubles the power available for an average person, and 25kmh is fast enough to cover ground but without the lethal consequences of inexperience.

I also have trouble buying the argument that it's different in Australia to Europe, it's still just people riding bikes. Though Europeans seem more "grown up" about it.

That's very sensible. I think a lot of the challenge is that many people see e-bikes and e-rides/devices generally as a cheaper less-regulated rego-free car alternative. Therefore, the automatic impulse is to compare (particularly top speed) with what's possible in a car. They are an alternative but their strengths/advantages are different. Where I live, I can usually keep up with traffic on my conventional bike due to lights etc. People in cars don't realise that it's people in cars that are slowing them down.

[Tasmaniac]

I think they just don't want to be held up, they want to get where they want to go as quickly as they can. I work with a bloke who recently lost his licence for drink driving, AGAIN... (some people never learn). But it's the Cop's & the Government's fault because the legal BAC should be much higher, according to him, because he can handle his alcohol. He was talking about getting a 2000w ebike because the regular ones are too slow. When I told him they're illegal his attitude was "I don't give a f*** the cops have gotta catch me first, which they never will". He sees an ebike as a convenient replacement for his car that because of his blatant disregard for the law has prevented him from driving. It's about getting to where he needs to go as fast as possible for his own convenience. He's in his 50's but has the attitude toward the Police & authority in general as that of an irresponsible teenager. Too many people that want these high speed ebikes aren't really interested in cycling, it's just a cheaper alternative to a car, and they are more a part of the problem than the solution. Another problem with overpowered ebikes, like people riding without helmets, running red lights etc, is who ever really polices it?

[Comedian]

I think they just don't want to be held up, they want to get where they want to go as quickly as they can. I work with a bloke who recently lost his licence for drink driving, AGAIN... (some people never learn). But it's the Cop's & the Government's fault because the legal BAC should be much higher, according to him, because he can handle his alcohol. He was talking about getting a 2000w ebike because the regular ones are too slow. When I told him they're illegal his attitude was "I don't give a f*** the cops have gotta catch me first, which they never will". He sees an ebike as a convenient replacement for his car that because of his blatant disregard for the law has prevented him from driving. It's about getting to where he needs to go as fast as possible for his own convenience. He's in his 50's but has the attitude toward the Police & authority in general as that of an irresponsible teenager. Too many people that want these high speed ebikes aren't really interested in cycling, it's just a cheaper alternative to a car, and they are more a part of the problem than the solution. Another problem with overpowered ebikes, like people riding without helmets, running red lights etc, is who ever really polices it?

People on hot ebikes and scooters are quite hard to catch. The QLD police have found police motorbikes to be the only effective vehicle for this.

[open roader]

I recently had my gravel eBike speed limiter 'de-restricted'

So flame me.........

.......... or don't.

Lifted from the legal limit of 25km/hr to 35km/hr.

I have no regrets, nor do I feel an ounce of remorse or guilt as I'm riding my bike on essentially empty back roads at exactly the same speeds on the same roads that I used to ride my non pedal assist gravel bike at.

I see my case as being responsible for my own actions at all times - I was raised this way. I don't see this as me being 'entitled' to a faster speed, more so that I could simply attain one and live well within my skin with (if any) the consequences.

The software I used to de-restrict my bike allowed me to go as high as 75km/hr which to me is way excessive and mostly useless to me as the flat road cruising speed and gearing of my bike has a sweet spot either side of 30km/hr. Any more than 35km/hr is excess as i can't always control my bike going faster than that, nor do I enjoy going faster than that.

Wish me luck..........

[Thoglette]

I'm riding my bike on essentially empty back roads at exactly the same speeds on the same roads that I used to ride my non pedal assist gravel bike at.

So why bother with the e-thing bits? Are you commuting a much larger distance than previously?

[find_bruce]

Open roader, that's not something I would admit to publicly - never know when it might come back to bite you

[zebee]

Open roader, that's not something I would admit to publicly - never know when it might come back to bite you

Especially if you are trying to claim on any form of insurance such as if you are hit by a car. If you are on an illegal ebike and you knew it was illegal then your payout is likely to be drastically cut as it will be considered contributory. Even if you were not speeding! (Happened to a guy in Canberra. No cite, Austlii is being very slow)

[Comedian]

Open roader, that's not something I would admit to publicly - never know when it might come back to bite you

Especially if you are trying to claim on any form of insurance such as if you are hit by a car. If you are on an illegal ebike and you knew it was illegal then your payout is likely to be drastically cut as it will be considered contributory. Even if you were not speeding! (Happened to a guy in Canberra. No cite, Austlii is being very slow)

In queensland if the CTP lawyers worked out that you have an illegal bike It's likely that they would wipe you from a CTP perspective.

[warthog1]

So flame me.........

.......... or don't.

....

There is a cyclist here who will let them go a more reasonable speed for people.
A not particularly fast cyclist was swapping off on the Mt Alex ride at 45kmh on his revolt e.
As you are not going to be an idiot with it you should be fine.

[Comedian]

Can I just say... If I was a utility commuter in the NL. A long bike ride was 10k, and I was surrounded by a network of direct and safe paths where everyone else mostly rode at high teens... I reckon I'd think 25 was light speed.

For the most part that's absolutely nothing like our cycling environment here.

[WyvernRH]

Can I just say... If I was a utility commuter in the NL. A long bike ride was 10k, and I was surrounded by a network of direct and safe paths where everyone else mostly rode at high teens... I reckon I'd think 25 was light speed.

For the most part that's absolutely nothing like our cycling environment here.

Well, I'll agree with the lack of paths thing but as a long distance commuter myself (into Newcastle NSW tho') I'm still not seeing all these high speed, long distance commuters that are meant to be typically Australian. I'm pretty much on my lonesome until Hexham bridge, see a few fit types on the highway up to Sandgate Cemetary and THEN commuter cyclists start to appear in greater numbers riding from the Mid to Inner suburbs. None of them are flying around, you can't really in town conditions - an old fart like me is often the fastest thing on the block.
I think this high speed, long distance commuting thing may be a Brisbane/Sydney fit person thing. I don't think most e-bike commuters will need or want to do over 25kph to get into work. For fun at the weekend, maybe...

Also, it does puzzle me this 'Life stops at 25kph' theme that seems to run through this forum. If I'm in a situation where I would be doing over 25kph then I don't need assistance - it's downhill or flat - just pedal normally and go for it.
OK, I'm not going to keep up with a fit 25 yo on a TDF racer on my 17kg e-bike but that was never the case whatever I was riding . Probably helps that I've had a lifetime of pushing loaded touring bikes around so I don't have the 'racy' expectations that seem to be prominent on this forum.

Richard

[Comedian]

Can I just say... If I was a utility commuter in the NL. A long bike ride was 10k, and I was surrounded by a network of direct and safe paths where everyone else mostly rode at high teens... I reckon I'd think 25 was light speed.

For the most part that's absolutely nothing like our cycling environment here.

Well, I'll agree with the lack of paths thing but as a long distance commuter myself (into Newcastle NSW tho') I'm still not seeing all these high speed, long distance commuters that are meant to be typically Australian. I'm pretty much on my lonesome until Hexham bridge, see a few fit types on the highway up to Sandgate Cemetary and THEN commuter cyclists start to appear in greater numbers riding from the Mid to Inner suburbs. None of them are flying around, you can't really in town conditions - an old fart like me is often the fastest thing on the block.
I think this high speed, long distance commuting thing may be a Brisbane/Sydney fit person thing. I don't think most e-bike commuters will need or want to do over 25kph to get into work. For fun at the weekend, maybe...

Also, it does puzzle me this 'Life stops at 25kph' theme that seems to run through this forum. If I'm in a situation where I would be doing over 25kph then I don't need assistance - it's downhill or flat - just pedal normally and go for it.
OK, I'm not going to keep up with a fit 25 yo on a TDF racer on my 17kg e-bike but that was never the case whatever I was riding . Probably helps that I've had a lifetime of pushing loaded touring bikes around so I don't have the 'racy' expectations that seem to be prominent on this forum.

Richard

It's a spectrum for sure. Not all e-bikes are derestricted. No idea what the % is but you do see legal ones about. When commuting though I'd say it's more likely to see derestricted than legal ones in BNE. I'll often catch myself being astonished if I see one with the limiter still in place. The expensive e-mtbs you see in the bush or on rail trails might be different from a compliance perspective. I'm not sure.

Personally I'd support a somewhat higher limit.. maybe to the US 20mph/32kmh. I think the issue many have is it seems bikes are either legal or they are going faster than 32. If you are going to the trouble of derestricting for say an increase of 5k in top speed - would you bother? So it's not a case of life ending at 25, more a case of life possibly ending at 40-45. My experience is that mostly the derestricted ones seem to travel around 40 ish +- with only rare exceptions going significantly faster than that. I think this is a limitation of the devices which aren't set up to go much faster (gearing etc) so it's only home built specials that do higher speeds. Contrast this with PMD's where it used to be common to see them doing 60 or more.

Either way, I'm pretty convinced that there is 0 recurring chance of the speed limit being changed for e-bikes at least in QLD. PMD's have come along and are a far bigger problem (from an injury perspective) so all the enforcement focus is on them.

[Brendan H]

I recently had my gravel eBike speed limiter 'de-restricted'

So flame me.........

.......... or don't.

Lifted from the legal limit of 25km/hr to 35km/hr.

I have no regrets, nor do I feel an ounce of remorse or guilt as I'm riding my bike on essentially empty back roads at exactly the same speeds on the same roads that I used to ride my non pedal assist gravel bike at.

I see my case as being responsible for my own actions at all times - I was raised this way. I don't see this as me being 'entitled' to a faster speed, more so that I could simply attain one and live well within my skin with (if any) the consequences.

The software I used to de-restrict my bike allowed me to go as high as 75km/hr which to me is way excessive and mostly useless to me as the flat road cruising speed and gearing of my bike has a sweet spot either side of 30km/hr. Any more than 35km/hr is excess as i can't always control my bike going faster than that, nor do I enjoy going faster than that.

Wish me luck..........

If your bike motor watt output (note not the input ,electic motors can run at about 80% efficiency) is no more than 200w ,then there is no speed restriction. This is as per ADR(Australian design rules) which all state adopt.Victorian govt has not got a speed restriction on 200w ebikes. Only 250w ebikes must stop assist at 25kph.Put 250w into your motor and you will get max 200w out. As far as Im aware QLD is the only state to restrict assistance above 25kph for 200w ebikes. 200w from motor and 200w leg power = 400w. This should allow about 45kph on good flat road depending on gearing of motor and bike. Know the rules, and be legal while pedalling at 40kph assisted.

[Brendan H]

I recently had my gravel eBike speed limiter 'de-restricted'

So flame me.........

.......... or don't.

Lifted from the legal limit of 25km/hr to 35km/hr.

I have no regrets, nor do I feel an ounce of remorse or guilt as I'm riding my bike on essentially empty back roads at exactly the same speeds on the same roads that I used to ride my non pedal assist gravel bike at.

I see my case as being responsible for my own actions at all times - I was raised this way. I don't see this as me being 'entitled' to a faster speed, more so that I could simply attain one and live well within my skin with (if any) the consequences.

The software I used to de-restrict my bike allowed me to go as high as 75km/hr which to me is way excessive and mostly useless to me as the flat road cruising speed and gearing of my bike has a sweet spot either side of 30km/hr. Any more than 35km/hr is excess as i can't always control my bike going faster than that, nor do I enjoy going faster than that.

Wish me luck..........


If your bike motor watt output (note not the input ,electic motors can run at about 80% efficiency) is no more than 200w ,then there is no speed restriction. This is as per ADR(Australian design rules) which all state adopt.Victorian govt has not got a speed restriction on 200w ebikes. Only 250w ebikes must stop assist at 25kph.Put 250w into your motor and you will get max 200w out. As far as Im aware QLD is the only state to restrict assistance above 25kph for 200w ebikes. 200w from motor and 200w leg power = 400w. This should allow about 45kph on good flat road depending on gearing of motor and bike, tyres,wind drag etc. Know the rules, and be legal while pedalling at 40kph assisted.

Note a Power assisted pedal Cyle(PAPC) is NOT the same as an Electric Power Asissted Cycle.(EPAC) There is no speed limits on EPAC in the ADR or the Vic Road Rules.
From Vic Roads:
Definition of a power assisted bicycle
A power assisted bicycle is identical to a pedal powered bicycle, except it has an auxiliary motor. Power assisted bicycles have two definitions in Victoria:

A bicycle with one or more auxiliary motors attached which has a combined maximum ungoverned continuous rated power output not exceeding 200 watts.

[skyblot]

Note a Power assisted pedal Cyle(PAPC) is NOT the same as an Electric Power Asissted Cycle.(EPAC) There is no speed limits on EPAC in the ADR or the Vic Road Rules.
From Vic Roads:
Definition of a power assisted bicycle
A power assisted bicycle is identical to a pedal powered bicycle, except it has an auxiliary motor. Power assisted bicycles have two definitions in Victoria:

A bicycle with one or more auxiliary motors attached which has a combined maximum ungoverned continuous rated power output not exceeding 200 watts.

Ref https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2022C01069

For EPAC, there is no "speed limit" as such, but there is a speed at which the motor power must reduce to zero, and that is 25KMH.
"ELECTRICALLY POWER-ASSISTED CYCLE (EPAC) - means an electrically-powered pedal cycle with a maximum continuous rated power of 250W, of which the output is:
(a) progressively reduced as the cycle’s travel speed increases above 6 km/h; and
(b) cut off, where:
(i) the cycle reaches a speed of 25 km/h; or
(ii) the cyclist is not pedalling and the travel speed exceeds 6km/h."

[brumby33]

When I was driving the Buses within the City of Sydney and in particular from the Broadway inwards, I often came across those on delivery bikes (Uber Eats, Deliveroo, Menulog, Doordash and a few Chinese ones) at up to 40kph and not even pedalling and quite often it was reasonable difficult to overtake one as a pending bus stop was approaching.
Those bikes mostly had throttles on them, a huge battery pack and highly illegal in the way they were operated. These were not bought or leased bicycles, they were rented for a set fee each week (around $100-150pw) for a delivery rider and these bike dealers had deals for riders doing this kind o work that the Gig economy advertises in their recruitment adverts.....but the law does seem to bother about them too much unless they are hooting too fast on footpaths (which they do to cross intersections) they try and become vehicle/pedestrian/vehicle/pedestrian by hopping from the road to the footpaths all the time yet in all my time driving around the city in the bus, I've never seen a cop pull one of these riders over and confiscate the bike.
I don't think the Gig economy riding jobs are as profitable as they used to be but it kept young overseas students financial when stuck here during the Pandemic.

[ernie]

Australia is a much bigger place than EU countries where the 250w 25kmh caper orignated.
We just don't have the EU population density to justify such restrictions.

The 25km limit is the lesser evil, it's the 250w limit that is the real problem, you can't climb a hill at 24.99kmh on only 250W.

Australia should be following the US eBike class system instead, far better thought out than the obsolete EU standard.

[Thoglette]

…can’t climb

To quote from page one of this thread: it’s not about keeping up with the peloton. Rather it’s about approximating a normal person riding at a normal pace in normal* riding.

* how 90% of the world’s riders ride, not how the TdF wannabes ride.

[Mr Purple]

Australia is a much bigger place than EU countries where the 250w 25kmh caper orignated.
We just don't have the EU population density to justify such restrictions.

The 25km limit is the lesser evil, it's the 250w limit that is the real problem, you can't climb a hill at 24.99kmh on only 250W.

Australia should be following the US eBike class system instead, far better thought out than the obsolete EU standard.

99% of cyclists can't climb a decent hill at over 25km/hr either. Why should e-bikes get special dispensation?

I'm not a fan of this whole '250W is not enough' malarky. I just rode home from work (29km/338m) at an average of 235W. 33.3km/hr. Yeah, me and the bike weigh 68kg collectively, but trust me when I tell you it's possible to cause a fair bit of chaos with 250W when applied correctly.

[blizzard]

I feel like 250w is enough but the assist limit should be higher, there is a lot of flat long commutes around and we should be making it appealing to choose a bike over a car. You will be able to maintain 30+km/h but you will still need to work for it.

[find_bruce]

I feel like 250w is enough but the assist limit should be higher, there is a lot of flat long commutes around and we should be making it appealing to choose a bike over a car. You will be able to maintain 30+km/h but you will still need to work for it.

Whereas NSW has gone the other way - e-bikes can now be 500w, which is particularly good for cargo bikes, but maintained the 25km/h limit.

The reality is speed is much simpler to measure if police are motivated to enforce it.

Personally I think we should call them what they are which is mopeds, or in some parts of Europe pedelecs. There is clearly a demand for them, so permit & regulate them rather than a ban which is not enforced

[WyvernRH]

I feel like 250w is enough but the assist limit should be higher, there is a lot of flat long commutes around and we should be making it appealing to choose a bike over a car. You will be able to maintain 30+km/h but you will still need to work for it.

You know, I can hold 30kph+ on the flat riding my Cannondale e-Gravel, no problem. E-Bikes don't have some limiter that holds them to 25kph max it's just that you don't get assist after that - which you shouldn't need on the flat (IMHO). Hills, now that's different but I'm still only climbing at 15-20 kph max even with assist. Not that I'm in a hurry like some I suppose, once a tourist always a tourist

To be truthful, if I'm not on the highway (flat and smooth) I'm rarely moving over 25 kph anyway for a lot of the time as it's pretty hilly around here (downhill doesn't count )

In the interests of full disclosure, I should say I'm over 65 and recently retired so I don't get to do the commute into Newy anymore which has affected the fitness a bit.

Richard

PS +1 to Thoglettes comment above.

[jasonc]

I commute beside the western fwy/centenary mwy in brisbane. my commute is about 20.
the average speed of the highway in peak is 43km/h. on my roadie i average mid to high 20s
fast cyclists along there may average low 30s
with most of the path less than 3.5m wide, it's not made for high speed. if they want to go faster, they can get a motorbike, and ride on the motorway

[blizzard]

I commute beside the western fwy/centenary mwy in brisbane. my commute is about 20.
the average speed of the highway in peak is 43km/h. on my roadie i average mid to high 20s
fast cyclists along there may average low 30s
with most of the path less than 3.5m wide, it's not made for high speed. if they want to go faster, they can get a motorbike, and ride on the motorway

Kind of a moot point, there is no way a 250w Ebike will travel at 25km/h limit up the hills next to the freeway, and the downhills it doesn't matter what the assist level is because you can get freewheel over 30km/h with ease