Australian Cycling Forums - Bicycles Network Australia

Saying climbing is dependent on power/weight ratio doesn't drill down to the physiological essentials.

If we're talking about climbs greater than 10 minutes long, then we're talking aerobic advantage, and the physiological advantage is better understood as cardiac output rate per kg bodyweight.
In other words what limits one's climbing ability is the maximum rate you can get adequate oxygen distributed around the body, but especially the working muscle.

And cardiac output is a function of maximum heart rate, stroke volume, and peripheral resistance in your arterial system.
The work rate required is primarily dependent on the weight of your body and equipment, and secondarily on your efficiency at turning metabolic energy into power at the pedals.

So, the things you can do to improve your climbing are:
- increase the size of your heart muscle so stroke volume increases (a training outcome...however studies show as stroke volume increases, HRmax decreases)
- decrease peripheral resistance to cardiac output via a low fat diet and improved blood pressure in order to get a more compliant arterial system and competitive bodyfat %. blood pressure can be normalized through good life balance, relaxation strategies, and keeping non cycling muscles relaxed.
- reduce lean tissue to the optimal level for total body and bike weight
- increase muscle capillarization (a training outcome)
- improve cycling efficiency so that the body consumes as little oxygen as possible not required for climbing.

Maximal heart rate cannot be improved by training, however stimulants like caffeine can increase it.
Stroke volume has genetic limitations on how much it can be increased; and increasing heart size comes with higher risk of cardiac arrhythmia with age.

You could also do anything that increases oxygen carrying capacity of the blood (increase red blood cell count via blood doping, take EPO, go live at a high altitude)

cancan64 wrote:There is also pedal stroke technique as well, you can put the same effort into stomping on the pedals compared to what I call wiping dog poo off your shoe. When I concentrate on pedal stroke technique my climbing is a lot quicker and I notice this a lot more when I am climbing on the single speed where I have to get the most out of everything ...

Along similar lines, I'll throw in ones given biomechanices. With 'natural' climbers their must be some muscle length/pivot point etc that gives them a more efficient pedal stroke, regardless of weight

CKinnard wrote:Saying climbing is dependent on power/weight ratio doesn't drill down to the physiological essentials.

If we're talking about climbs greater than 10 minutes long, then we're talking aerobic advantage, and the physiological advantage is better understood as cardiac output rate per kg bodyweight.
In other words what limits one's climbing ability is the maximum rate you can get adequate oxygen distributed around the body, but especially the working muscle.

And cardiac output is a function of maximum heart rate, stroke volume, and peripheral resistance in your arterial system.
The work rate required is primarily dependent on the weight of your body and equipment, and secondarily on your efficiency at turning metabolic energy into power at the pedals.

So, the things you can do to improve your climbing are:
- increase the size of your heart muscle so stroke volume increases (a training outcome...however studies show as stroke volume increases, HRmax decreases)
- decrease peripheral resistance to cardiac output via a low fat diet and improved blood pressure in order to get a more compliant arterial system and competitive bodyfat %. blood pressure can be normalized through good life balance, relaxation strategies, and keeping non cycling muscles relaxed.
- reduce lean tissue to the optimal level for total body and bike weight
- increase muscle capillarization (a training outcome)
- improve cycling efficiency so that the body consumes as little oxygen as possible not required for climbing.

Maximal heart rate cannot be improved by training, however stimulants like caffeine can increase it.
Stroke volume has genetic limitations on how much it can be increased; and increasing heart size comes with higher risk of cardiac arrhythmia with age.

You could also do anything that increases oxygen carrying capacity of the blood (increase red blood cell count via blood doping, take EPO, go live at a high altitude)

So basically improving your power to weight

queequeg wrote:

rogan wrote:

queequeg wrote:I think I climb better than some other riders, not because I am genetic freak (I'm not), but I can just ignore the burning pain in my legs for longer
I reckon half the battle is psychological...

Well qq, I'm not buying that first line. More likely you're fitter and have higher sustainable W/kg... But to take up that point, going really hard on the hills, requires some bravery, because it IS going to hurt, and if you blow, you will go out the back door, and probably the whole rest of your ride will suck. There are SOME people who thus don't push it to the limit.

When you ride with the same people a lot, a pecking order can develop, and in that context, the hardest thing is driving yourself to stay with climbers who have been stronger than you in the past. But once you do it, they need to find a different way to get rid of you, assuming that's one of their aims...

... I'm only just getting my hill climbing fitness back after a couple of years of nothing. I have a while till I am back completely, but I have a few PRs in the last couple of months so it is starting to come together. Doing a hilly 170km ride over Easter at 29km/h avg was certainly progress, but I have nowhere near your power up those hills.

Hah! Too modest! I can finish a hill off, it almost wrecks me, but I can do it. But in general, I see a lot more of the back of your jersey uphill than you are seeing of mine... I'm improving too, but years of Strava give me a good idea where the achievable level of results lies...

rogan wrote:
Hah! Too modest! I can finish a hill off, it almost wrecks me, but I can do it. But in general, I see a lot more of the back of your jersey uphill than you are seeing of mine... I'm improving too, but years of Strava give me a good idea where the achievable level of results lies...

I've seen your name way up the top of those Strava segments, well above me. Except for Crosslands

Good at climbing - compared to whom?

Ride with fatter friends.

Cheers,

Cameron

DaveQB wrote:

yanjarra wrote: we are both identical weights and dead even when on the flats at sustained threshold power(i may be slightly quicker in a sprint(1 min power)), but he leaves me pretty comfortably on climbs when we both go as hard as we can. so how does one explain that?

Now this is interesting. One would assume it would be simply fitness

What matters on the flat is power to frontal area NOT power to weight, so your friend may have a larger frontal area than you do, and therefore, even though you're both riding the same speed on the flat, he's actually generating more power than you when you're both at threshold.

Then when the road goes up, since you're the same weight, his extra power lets him ride away from you.

toolonglegs wrote:So basically improving your power to weight

so basically, how does EPO, caffeine, unelevated diastolic blood pressure, and more compliant arteries improve your power, and how does your race training make provision for these?

CKinnard wrote:

toolonglegs wrote:So basically improving your power to weight

so basically, how does EPO, caffeine, unelevated diastolic blood pressure, and more compliant arteries improve your power, and how does your race training make provision for these?

Well if all these things let you hold 6.5w for 40 minutes on ALpe D'huez when you could only average 6w before ... then you have improved your power to weight ratio on that climb.
Yes I know it can get very complicated ...the simple point is though whether you are wipping the dog pooh off your heal or doping up yourself to the eye balls, the only way you will go up a hill quicker all things equal is ... oh you know the rest

CKinnard wrote:

toolonglegs wrote:So basically improving your power to weight

so basically, how does EPO, caffeine, unelevated diastolic blood pressure, and more compliant arteries improve your power, and how does your race training make provision for these?

Does rum, lime and sugar work? .

Stop changing everything! .... now my answers don't match the questions!

toolonglegs wrote:Well if all these things let you hold 6.5w for 40 minutes on ALpe D'huez when you could only average 6w before ... then you have improved your power to weight ratio on that climb.
Yes I know it can get very complicated ...the simple point is though whether you are wipping the dog pooh off your heal or doping up yourself to the eye balls, the only way you will go up a hill quicker all things equal is ... oh you know the rest

the point is, all things are not equal.
most riders' idea of improving power to weight begins and ends with smashing hills more....then riding home for pizza and beer, or pinot noir, baguettes, and cheese.
they don't comprehend the importance of good blood pressure and compliant arteries for improving power to weight ratio.

anyway, there's more to life than racing, hey TLL!?

CKinnard wrote: most riders' idea of improving power to weight begins and ends with smashing hills more....then riding home for pizza and beer, or pinot noir, baguettes, and cheese.

If serious with their training and improving power to weight, they will not be partaking in the foods and drinks listed above!

CKinnard wrote:

toolonglegs wrote:Well if all these things let you hold 6.5w for 40 minutes on ALpe D'huez when you could only average 6w before ... then you have improved your power to weight ratio on that climb.
Yes I know it can get very complicated ...the simple point is though whether you are wipping the dog pooh off your heal or doping up yourself to the eye balls, the only way you will go up a hill quicker all things equal is ... oh you know the rest

the point is, all things are not equal.
most riders' idea of improving power to weight begins and ends with smashing hills more....then riding home for pizza and beer, or pinot noir, baguettes, and cheese.
they don't comprehend the importance of good blood pressure and compliant arteries for improving power to weight ratio.

anyway, there's more to life than racing, hey TLL!?

Even without counting my cardiovascular disease ... age is doing a good job of reducing compliance .
I'll admit to the odd pizza ( without the cheese of course ) and beer here and there ... you reep what you sow but then none of us are doing it for a living. Whoops I do ride up big hills for a living .

dalai47 wrote:

CKinnard wrote: most riders' idea of improving power to weight begins and ends with smashing hills more....then riding home for pizza and beer, or pinot noir, baguettes, and cheese.

If serious with their training and improving power to weight, they will not be partaking in the foods and drinks listed above!

There's a time and place for everything wouldn't you agree?

Well except these ...

I dunno, yellow jersey, cigar, ther's hope for me yet

DS

What the OP could be asking while he improves his power to weight by whatever means he choses is " how do I crack my mate before, during and after the climb"

toolonglegs wrote:Even without counting my cardiovascular disease ... age is doing a good job of reducing compliance .
I'll admit to the odd pizza ( without the cheese of course ) and beer here and there ... you reep what you sow but then none of us are doing it for a living. Whoops I do ride up big hills for a living .

all of us should be doing food and lifestyle choices, for a living.
The option is to do them for disease and an earlier death.

If you sat down 200 years ago with Tibetans, Okinawans, or Suri tribesmen and told them they'd be happier eating fast food and booze, and 40kg heavier, what do you think they'd say?

toolonglegs wrote:

dalai47 wrote:If serious with their training and improving power to weight, they will not be partaking in the foods and drinks listed above!

There's a time and place for everything wouldn't you agree?

everyone (well 98% of us) are running around making a time and place for everything but that which is critical to our health i.e.
http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/6003- ... 1501062212" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

power to weight is key here and essentially that means dropping off fat or moving down the bmi scale - whilst maintaining power output or watts/kg, big power that you'll typically see with the bigger guys simply aren't sustainable in our sport which is primarily 'endurance' based. so we need sustained power outputs over long periods of time.

so the simplest way to go quicker up hill and anywhere else is to increase your sustained output and I can tell you this is much much easier if you don't have to carry lard which is essentially useless baggage.

and here's the radical part that people won't face because its a serious lifestyle change and that is keep saturated fats - particularly animal fats to a minimum and increase complex carbs and that's fruit and veg. oh no, give up the chops and bacon. ???? yep!

fat has twice the calories as carbs and remembering that carbs are our muscle fuel source for cycling.

but cancellara eats pig .... yes however that's on 20 hours a week training.

normal people are lucky if they can manage 10 hours.

try building your nutrition around veg, fruit and lean meat and watch your personal results increase.

I've been doing this for 4 years now from 86kgs to 80kgs and with a big cardio engine (rest 42) no amount of training was going to overcome the lard, so now at 80kg, I can do a 10 hour 3 peaks with commuter training only.

mtb1011 wrote:this article explains quite a bit on what's being discussed.

Brilliant article! I am going to read that a few times.
This sounds like an explanation for yanjarra and his same weight mate's differences going up hill.

For really improving climbing performance, you just need the right motivation...such as a bear chasing you

mtb1011 wrote:normal people are lucky if they can manage 10 hours.

try building your nutrition around veg, fruit and lean meat and watch your personal results increase.

I've been doing this for 4 years now from 86kgs to 80kgs and with a big cardio engine (rest 42) no amount of training was going to overcome the lard, so now at 80kg, I can do a 10 hour 3 peaks with commuter training only.

10 hours is not shabby. I agree with your diet spiel.
5kg of excess fat is the same as carrying 8 full water bottles, which most riders wouldn't dream of carting up a 20km 10% climb.
98% of Aussies eat for short term pleasure, and not nutritive value and longevity. When the wheels start falling off their low back, heart, energy levels, they want someone else to pick them up and glue them together.

CKinnard wrote: When the wheels start falling off their low back, heart, energy levels, they want someone else to pick them up and glue them together.

What's lower back got to do with diet?

singlespeedscott wrote:

CKinnard wrote: When the wheels start falling off their low back, heart, energy levels, they want someone else to pick them up and glue them together.

What's lower back got to do with diet?

Carry too much weight around your hips or out front and you're a prime candidate for low back pain and possible degenerative problems down the line.

singlespeedscott wrote:

CKinnard wrote: When the wheels start falling off their low back, heart, energy levels, they want someone else to pick them up and glue them together.

What's lower back got to do with diet?

a question you need to ask your orthopedic surgeon, GP, and physio/chiropractor.