CeramicSpeed DrivEn drivetrain

[MichaelB]

...the gullible cycling community...

Well, it's a target-rich environment!

The marketing claims that some people fall for are just amazing.

Christopher had a look at Eurobike and the display model is already broken . Some interesting solutions to the issues as part of the design, but it's still the 6th Horseman of the Apocalypse ...

[Duck!]

Christopher had a look at Eurobike and the display model is already broken .

Don't think that's quite the proof of concept they intended!

[g-boaf]

Seems to me Ceramicspeed are in the business of selling outrageously expensive, unnecessary products to the gullible cycling community.
For example, ceramic bottom bracket bearings. Great bearings for high speed, high temp applications eg. bearings spinning at 10,000 RPM+. How fast do I peddle? About 85 RPM.

I don't have a ceramic speed bottom bracket, but my bike does have a slightly cheaper Kogel one - it does spin a lot more freely and seems to be more so now that it is run in quite well. I ended up going for the version aimed at cyclocross - it's been pretty much flawless running over a lot of kms on my road bike.

The CeramicSpeed Driven drive train though, that's a step too far.

[Duck!]

I don't have a ceramic speed bottom bracket, but my bike does have a slightly cheaper Kogel one - it does spin a lot more freely and seems to be more so now that it is run in quite well.

Most of the drag in a regular bottom bracket is the seals rather than the bearings. Shimano models in particular have a dirt seal under the outer cover that does drag a fair bit, but it's very effective at keeping crud out of the bearings. Gently lifting off the outer covers & applying a bit of Slick Honey grease or silicon lube to the lip of the inner seal cuts drag enormously.

[MichaelB]

Christopher had a look at Eurobike and the display model is already broken .

Don't think that's quite the proof of concept they intended!

I did have a quiet chuckle at that.

[MichaelB]

Good explanation of how little the theoretical gains are in reality, even IF they did work ….

[biker jk]

I don't have a ceramic speed bottom bracket, but my bike does have a slightly cheaper Kogel one - it does spin a lot more freely and seems to be more so now that it is run in quite well.

Most of the drag in a regular bottom bracket is the seals rather than the bearings. Shimano models in particular have a dirt seal under the outer cover that does drag a fair bit, but it's very effective at keeping crud out of the bearings. Gently lifting off the outer covers & applying a bit of Slick Honey grease or silicon lube to the lip of the inner seal cuts drag enormously.

Here's Hambini confirming that seal drag is a significant multiple of the rolling friction of the balls.

[P!N20]

Good explanation of how little the theoretical gains are in reality, even IF they did work …

2 watts?

[MichaelB]

And that 2 “theoretical” watts. Not real ones !!

[Trevtassie]

Yep, ceramic balls, designed to reduce the rotating weight in high speed bearings, but majik on bicycles... doubled down to an enjuneerin disaster.

[AUbicycles]

I publish a writeup of it which put it all in perspective. I went back to the stand a few times but never got to see it in action. Apparently it was working again... but was having issues - very much a prototype.

Eurobike Highlights and the Truth behind the Ceramic Speed bicycle drivetrain

In summary, the marketing is over the top... but it drives attention and business to their coated chains and jockey wheels.

But, they are genuinely working on it and trying to get the shifting to work and their suggestion is that in 6 months they will have solved it... but I still don't believe it will be market ready then. In fact, they will be looking for a partner when they are ready.

The aero was not convincing... it is just a cover and as there is no derailleur, of course there is less bits to distract airflow.
The rideable model (up to 45kmh) was unfortunately a single-speed and not shiftable and was not available to test.

And then there is the question of torque... this still needs to be addressed and the idea is that we see a completely new wheel design where the cassette is attached to the hub and wheel - perhaps a one piece wheel.

But there is also an issue that when the chain is engaged, instead of have of the teeth of a chain ring or jockey wheel or cassette being connected to the chain - the ceramic speed has 1 - 2 teeth in total connected to the cassette at any one time. If the drive is also pressed too tightly against the cassette to help power transfer then this also increases friction. Previous generation drive-shafts have teeth rather than bearings and they can transfer torque but at the cost of power efficiency (compared to a classic chain).

To put the ensure drivetrain in perspective... we have to remove the marketing a bit and we have to remove the expectation that it will be market ready in the near future.

But I think the positive is that a brand working and trying it out to see if it is viable. If the marketing could tone it down... it would be far more interesting to track this project and check in to see progress and they continue the development.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Let me know when it can cope with some full gas standing starts.

I'm not expecting a rapid response.

[MattyK]

... I think the positive is that a brand working and trying it out to see if it is viable...

It's not, this has been proven over a century and a half, and someone as competent as Jason Smith should be embarrassed to have his name near this.

Let me put this to you: If ball-bearing-interfaced bevel gear arrangements were viable, then there would without doubt be an industrial application* that used them already. If I ran a giant factory or ten full of machinery, I'd be looking for any way possible to reduce my bills (power and maintenance).

(*Or race cars, or aeroplanes, etc where weight is a factor)

This abortion is just an answer looking for a question that noone asked, and has multiple fundamental flaws. I can't believe anyone takes it more seriously than a joke of a marketing attention grab. Damn it makes my head hurt to think that people think this is realistic.

[RobertL]

I publish a writeup of it which put it all in perspective. I went back to the stand a few times but never got to see it in action. Apparently it was working again... but was having issues - very much a prototype.

Eurobike Highlights and the Truth behind the Ceramic Speed bicycle drivetrain

In summary, the marketing is over the top... but it drives attention and business to their coated chains and jockey wheels.

But, they are genuinely working on it and trying to get the shifting to work and their suggestion is that in 6 months they will have solved it... but I still don't believe it will be market ready then. In fact, they will be looking for a partner when they are ready.

The aero was not convincing... it is just a cover and as there is no derailleur, of course there is less bits to distract airflow.
The rideable model (up to 45kmh) was unfortunately a single-speed and not shiftable and was not available to test.

And then there is the question of torque... this still needs to be addressed and the idea is that we see a completely new wheel design where the cassette is attached to the hub and wheel - perhaps a one piece wheel.

But there is also an issue that when the chain is engaged, instead of have of the teeth of a chain ring or jockey wheel or cassette being connected to the chain - the ceramic speed has 1 - 2 teeth in total connected to the cassette at any one time. If the drive is also pressed too tightly against the cassette to help power transfer then this also increases friction. Previous generation drive-shafts have teeth rather than bearings and they can transfer torque but at the cost of power efficiency (compared to a classic chain).

To put the ensure drivetrain in perspective... we have to remove the marketing a bit and we have to remove the expectation that it will be market ready in the near future.

But I think the positive is that a brand working and trying it out to see if it is viable. If the marketing could tone it down... it would be far more interesting to track this project and check in to see progress and they continue the development.

The best thing I saw in that article was the curvy tube nozzle thingy for the WD-40. That's groundbreaking!

Good write up on the DrivEn too!

[AUbicycles]

Damn it makes my head hurt to think that people think this is realistic.

Then sit back and enjoy the ride. If they then put it on some high-end $20,000 bikes with the disclaimer "don't pedal too hard" then you can smile knowing it is not your money.

Take a look at the other article on the Arevo 3D printed carbon fiber bike... this is one I am excited with and this year they will start producing frames for a US ebike brand. 3D printing does introduce some limitations (specifically, it needs a 'bed' upon which the frame is built, but they have been solving the challenges and have worked out how to create a full unibody frame.

[10speedsemiracer]

Nice write-up Chris, and was good to see Hunt wheels get a bit of love. Re the CeramicSpeed, I think the quote

Until then, the marketing has been great, media and consumer interest in the regular Ceramic Speed bearings and coated chains is booming.

sums up the entire project.

Still, an interesting exercise, along the lines of a concept 'halo' car from a major manufacturer with little to no intent to actually produce.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Kind of like an April fool's joke that's overextended its welcome.

[MichaelB]

Kind of like an April fool's joke that's overextended its welcome.

Fixed it for you !

[AUbicycles]

I will ask them if it can do this...
https://www.instagram.com/p/B2CH5j3Ihzw ... yclesnetau


The instagram video (in the link above) shows a test rig from a Portuguese brand call Miranda who have a chainring design that helps prevent chaindrop.

[MichaelB]

Um, yeah, nah.

Watch their eyes when you ask em !!

[10speedsemiracer]

I will ask them if it can do this...
https://www.instagram.com/p/B2CH5j3Ihzw ... yclesnetau


The instagram video (in the link above) shows a test rig from a Portuguese brand call Miranda who have a chainring design that helps prevent chaindrop.

This makes me so happy. The fact that this Portuguese business is conducting stress-testing utilizing real-world modelling based on Melbourne suburban roads is wonderful...

[AUbicycles]

Love it.... a criticism I heard of the Miranda system is that the rig isn't testing torque either

[AUbicycles]

Any questions for the lead engineer of the Ceramic Speed Drivetrain?
I can't guarantee that all will get through - but have the opportunity to ask some specific questions to get specific responses.

At the moment I am covering themes (these are summaries):
- Historically they driveshafts on bicycles have not been adopted... what has changed that make the ceramic speed viable.
- Motorcycles use shaftdrives in some high powered bikes, they use bevel gears and there is some torque inefficiency but are a robust solution... the disadvantages (weight, torque loss) make it less suited to low powered motorbikes, how do Ceramic Speed resolve the efficiency issue
- A conventional chain has a large contact area with a cog... for the Ceramic Speed with a small contact area (1 - 1.5 bearings), what is the impact on wear and tear and failure rate?
- How will high-load scenarios be resolved (to prevent skipping teeth, deflecting cassette, exploding pinion / bearings)?
- In 6 months all technical challenges would be resolved (quoted), What are these and will it then be ready for production and sale

I won't talk about the marketing and hype as this is for the engineer.

Have I missed any technical questions?



Cheers
Christopher

[MichaelB]

I’d be asking how they deal (in terms of strengthening the frame locally) with the forces generated under load to keep everything aligned and low friction - this can be in the BB area for the 1st 90 degree directional change, but then also at the cassette, especially in the largest cogs when you would expect that there would be higher power applied in ‘climbing’ (strength of hub flange area and chain stay to stop flex).

Another question is what they the overall weight penalty would be on an optimal solution - could it ever get realistically down to a similar “system weight” as the current system, especially given the minimal wattage delta over a current efficient system (per Hambini video).

[AUbicycles]

Thanks for these MichaelB

In the Eurobike article I touched on their comments about redesigning / rethinking the hub and wheel.
https://www.bicycles.net.au/2019/09/eur ... rivetrain/

One of the most interesting suggestions from Jason Smith is that the concept of the cassete, hub, spokes and wheel can be reimagined.

Let me ensure that I have this covered...

I was although thinking about quick wheel changes for pro cyclists. When the Mavic neutral service already have to think about rim and disc brakes, different rear cassettes and even different skewer/axles... would they even add one of these?