I think I've over trained too much

[old pedals]

Hi this is my first post. I'm 72 years old, male, and I' would love some help please. As a bit of background I started cycling late in life, in my 50's after some operation from Arthritis and didn't want it to get me down. In the past I've trained for and cycled some solo fundraising bike rides with two support cars, these have been 890kms, 1400kms, 950kms, 260kms, 490kms and 260kms all without any major incident. During these times I have had more operations now with two artificial knees, one artificial ankle, one fused ankle and one artificial wrist. this isn't having a whinge about my problems just simply saying that although I have these handicaps I still want to remain active.
I have been training now for nearly 3 months for another challenge this time in April 2021 but thinking I needed to speed up my strength started training to watts and not just my heart rate as I've always done. I've had recent heart stress tests from a heart specialist with all ok, my Orthopaedic surgeon is ok with me doing it as well . It was suggested to me to do interval training by a cyclist which I started doing on my road bike and a smart trainer, and got to twice a day for 1 hour whereas I came in from outside in a lather of sweat and started to feel worn out. I decided to rest for a few days but began to stiffen up and find my hands were all pins and needles constantly, ( I must admit my core strength is nowhere near what it should be, hence leaning on handlebars too much). I have now developed no strength in my legs whatsoever and find it difficult to walk, not through pain but like my legs are jelly and that I'm off balance. I saw my GP who took blood tests and said all showed up good, my early morning pulse is up slightly but blood pressure is good. I have climbed on my bike and trainer twice in the last few days and just spun slowly for 5 minutes, this was without any issues and it felt good until I got off.
I am in a desperate mindset where any suggestions as to overcoming this dilemma would be appreciated. If and When I can get back to training I will revert back to my old way of heart rate and forget the Watts. If anyone can give me advice I would be eternally grateful.
Regards Melvin

[foo on patrol]

Interval training isn't 1hr bursts, it's much short and interval work won;t do you any good, unless you have plenty of K's in your legs.

You need to be doing longer riders of +50klms and not hurting yourself but just working the legs over distance and doing a longer rider at least once a week. How many K's do you do a week? I don't care for watt training, just get out there and ride K's on flats and hills but not kill yourself doing it. Do you have a recovery drink after riders that leave you feeling sore?

Interval work should only come to play, once you have a base fitness and then only if your looking for speed. Endurance is what you should be aiming for with charity rides.

Foo

[LateStarter]

I agree with Foo, not withstanding the Ks you have previously done at "our age" I wonder if you are trying the wrong training. It is entirely possible to continue endurance into the 60s, 70s, ? but the rule is (unless you are a super person) no sprints, no chases and get a triple with low gears, let the young bucks and buckesses ride ahead.

Consistent, regular long distance is what you need for endurance.

Have a look at the Audax calendar, hundreds of 200, 300, 400, 600, 1000, 1200km rides (in the next 12 months), scheduled in every state, mostly no support though, you are mostly on your own.

In last years Paris-Brest-Paris 1220km event 40% of the 70-79 year old starters finished within the allowed 90 hours (that's elapsed, not moving, sleeping and everything else counts), the overall success percentage was 68%, unfortunately none of the 4 >80 year olds finished but everyone has to "qualify" with a 200, 300, 400, 600 series in the preceding 8 months.

https://www.audax.org.au/portal/rides/calendar


*error in the table, "overall total registered" should be 6,674

[Derny Driver]

Interval training isn't 1hr bursts, it's much short and interval work won;t do you any good, unless you have plenty of K's in your legs.

You need to be doing longer riders of +50klms and not hurting yourself but just working the legs over distance and doing a longer rider at least once a week. How many K's do you do a week? I don't care for watt training, just get out there and ride K's on flats and hills but not kill yourself doing it. Do you have a recovery drink after riders that leave you feeling sore?

Interval work should only come to play, once you have a base fitness and then only if your looking for speed. Endurance is what you should be aiming for with charity rides.

Foo

Yep, what Foo said ^^^. Spot on

[Matias]

I've had recent heart stress tests from a heart specialist with all ok, my Orthopaedic surgeon is ok with me doing it as well . It was suggested to me to do interval training by a cyclist which I started doing on my road bike and a smart trainer, and got to twice a day for 1 hour whereas I came in from outside in a lather of sweat and started to feel worn out. I decided to rest for a few days but began to stiffen up and find my hands were all pins and needles constantly, ( I must admit my core strength is nowhere near what it should be, hence leaning on handlebars too much). I have now developed no strength in my legs whatsoever and find it difficult to walk, not through pain but like my legs are jelly and that I'm off balance. I saw my GP who took blood tests and said all showed up good, my early morning pulse is up slightly but blood pressure is good. I have climbed on my bike and trainer twice in the last few days and just spun slowly for 5 minutes, this was without any issues and it felt good until I got off.
I am in a desperate mindset where any suggestions as to overcoming this dilemma would be appreciated. If and When I can get back to training I will revert back to my old way of heart rate and forget the Watts. If anyone can give me advice I would be eternally grateful.
Regards Melvin

Why were you referred to a heart specialist?
After you became weak, sounds like your GP screened for blood sugar, heart attack, and inflammation/infection.
However, blood tests cannot screen for cardiac arrhythmia or mild stroke....nor can a blood pressure monitor; but a heart rate monitor can pick up ongoing arrhythmia (requires heart rate monitor chest strap and HR app on your phone or garmin computer).
I'd suggest you go back to your GP, and write down exactly the symptoms, and report them clearly.
You need further investigation.
Keep track of your urination habits too, specifically if there's been any change in volume or thirst.

[ft_critical]

Intervals take much more time to recover from. So by my read, you broke the rule of increasing intensity gradually. Secondly, stopping for a rest for a few days after intervals (that are too intense) is also a bad plan. Just doing a 30min recovery ride each of those rest days will prevent you from stiffening up.

I think a combo of longer rides and maybe one interval session a week, plus making sure you do plenty of recovery rides might fix you up.

[old pedals]

Hi to you all, and especially Foo.
I can't thank you all enough for your input, it all makes sense, especially in hindsight. I do use a HR monitor with Chest Strap all the time when riding, and I may not of explained correctly the Heart Specialist, it wasn't since I've started training that I saw him it was prior to even commencing my training. In reading now what each of you have said I think the person giving me advice previously might have had good intentions but didn't explain the volume. I've been using ZWIFT with my home trainer and that was where I chose the Intervals from, something I won't be doing again (the intervals I mean). I have an 11-34 cassette and took my 53/39 Crank-set off for a while and put the 50/34 Compact on but with a shorter length cranks and my cadence being averaging at 80 to 90 that was when I went downhill, I've since put the Standard back on but not ridden since, I think I'll take everyone's advice and place a triple that I have on.
Because I feel like crap and can hardly walk especially in a straight line, would it hurt to climb back on and just spin slowly for say 10 minutes a couple of times a day.
I've been guided by your wisdom and will attempt to do the ride eventually (April 9th and 10th April) in common sense mode.
I know you will probably say how long is a piece of string but any rough guidelines how long this crap feeling will last?
Thanks again for your support.
Regards
Mel

[Derny Driver]

Because I feel like crap and can hardly walk especially in a straight line, would it hurt to climb back on and just spin slowly for say 10 minutes a couple of times a day.
I've been guided by your wisdom and will attempt to do the ride eventually (April 9th and 10th April) in common sense mode.
I know you will probably say how long is a piece of string but any rough guidelines how long this crap feeling will last?
Thanks again for your support.
Regards
Mel

10 mins easy a day will be perfect. Your legs may take up to a week to come good but they will get better quicker with some easier riding rather than just doing nothing.
You need to be careful with home trainers at your age and with your history. They can be the greatest thing ever invented and the worst at the same time. They can be quite brutal if used the wrong way (as you discovered).
I used to live opposite Brett Dutton in the 90s, he was an Olympic cyclist, and he told me he never ever did more than 20 minutes on a trainer because it was too brutal. This was before the invention of the modern machines. Yes its possible to do an hour these days on a trainer, but an hour is still a long time. My son is 25 and in top shape and he never does an hour. 30 -40 minutes tops.
You talked about cadence and seemed to suggest that your cadence of 80-90 was the problem, so you've gone back to standard cranks and a slower cadence now? You said you will now "just spin slowly" ?
The problem with that is that with slow cadence you increase the load on your legs, which is what you are trying to recover from. You need to spin at 80 but with no load, an easy gear, just crystal cranking with hardly any effort or pushing on the pedals. So a really easy gear, just turning it over nice and soft. The crank length and chainring sizes make no difference but I would be using the compacts if I were you.
So how about 10 minutes a day in a ridiculously easy gear just turning the legs over. If the gear is real easy your cadence can be anything from 60-80. That will help get the lactic out and repair the damaged muscles.

Using heart rate has been discussed here many times on this forum - in my opinion its only advantage is to keep over zealous and over enthusiastic people from riding too hard. If you are just trying to ride in Zone 1 and you need the machine to monitor that, then good. If you are trying to ride in other zones, then watts are a better option. But I think you need to throw the power meter out the window. Perceived effort is a tried and trusted and proven method and in your situation, the preferred one. In my opinion.

[warthog1]

Yeah I've recently gotten a power meter. It is interest value only as I have never been coached in its use.
I use perceived effort an HR as an adjunct to perceived effort.

[Tim]

Maybe you need a spot of Perineum Sunning for an energy boost.
It's the next big thing in the world of internet wellness.
Just ask Metaphysical Meagan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he6rW1z ... e=emb_logo
"... a natural way for an energy rush...", MM. What could go wrong?

[trailgumby]

This is for once you are recovered from overtraining.

Your training needs some structure, especially if you are training with a power meter. At your age, some weights to help you maintain strength and muscle mass are a must-do. The approach here is called "periodization".

Some reading will help, I recommend Cyclists Training Bible and Fast After 50, both by Joe Friel. He is a leader in training the ageing athlete. He suggests a recovery week with lighter load every third week for riders 40+ to help wash out the fatigue, and I've found this is an effective strategy for avoiding getting stuck in a rut and plateauing, or overtraining and getting sick.

Some useful links:
http://www.simplycyclingtraining.com/ne ... ing-zones/
http://www.simplycyclingtraining.com/st ... -it-right/
http://www.simplycyclingtraining.com/base-training/
http://www.simplycyclingtraining.com/je ... g-program/

[g-boaf]

This is for once you are recovered from overtraining.

Your training needs some structure, especially if you are training with a power meter. At your age, some weights to help you maintain strength and muscle mass are a must-do. The approach here is called "periodization".

Some reading will help, I recommend Cyclists Training Bible and Fast After 50, both by Joe Friel. He is a leader in training the ageing athlete. He suggests a recovery week with lighter load every third week for riders 40+ to help wash out the fatigue, and I've found this is an effective strategy for avoiding getting stuck in a rut and plateauing, or overtraining and getting sick.

Some useful links:
http://www.simplycyclingtraining.com/ne ... ing-zones/
http://www.simplycyclingtraining.com/st ... -it-right/
http://www.simplycyclingtraining.com/base-training/
http://www.simplycyclingtraining.com/je ... g-program/

This is pretty good advice. The thing that worries me is the pins and needles he is reporting.

I also agree with some time in the gym (at home preferably) with some structured training recommended by a physio to address the shortcomings mentioned.

[old pedals]

Hi
Thanks once again for some serious and sensible advice. I went on the home trainer for 5 minutes the last couple of days but will start today with 10 minutes today. I find when I'm on the bike it's like I haven't been off it, comfortable, legs work (I'm only spinning lightly). I got up this morning and once again my legs just don't work the same, I must also admit my sleeping pattern, although never real good, has taken a dive also, I'm only getting about 5 hours sleep a night.
I have a floor trampoline that I used to use after knee and ankle operations that I'm thinking of using slowly to see if I can gain some co-ordination and balance also, I will keep this up for a couple of days alongside the pedalling for 10 minutes and let you know my progress.
Your comments are all commendable and I will keep looking to see any further input, I'm starting to write notes and record difficulties of my own just in case I want to revert back later.
I will also take in mind some other strengthening exercise times, I have a pair of 2 kg weights that I used to strap on my ankles for leg exercise that I'll use for my arms for a change.
Thank you once again for all taking the time to want to help, it's times like this when we don't realise just how important it is to have others willing to offer guidance.
regards Melvin.

[nickobec]

I am a science-technology-training geek and agreed with everything Foo said.

The only one thing I would add is almost five months out, I would be looking at a strength training plan now. Get in the gym learn to lift serious weights a couple of times a week for the next couple of months.

If you have not already got a GP management plan, talk to your GP about getting one. Gets you 5 medicare paid visits to physio, exercise physiologist etc.

I am going through this right now as I want to improve my strength and therefore my on the bike fitness, by lifting weights and want to do it safely.

[LateStarter]

I' would love some help please. Melvin

Melvin, I recently saw a relevant thread on YACF (Yet Another Cycling Forum), https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php a forum associated with Audax UK members thus having a special focus on longer distance cycling and fair to say the membership is skewed towards the veteran end of the age distribution.

"Over 70's Audaxing" https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=117888.0

The entire "Further & Faster" section is also relevant https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=57.0, scroll through the topics (7 pages of them) and you will find many of interest (among the usual forum dross to be taken with a large load of salt), one of my favourites is "Further and Faster in plain English (training for dummies?!) https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=42693.0"

Also worthwhile is the "Health & Fitness" section https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=8.0

The "PBP 2019" section provides me with a lot of inspiration for my hoped for 2023 attempt https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=83.0

Make sure you don't spend too long reading and neglect the riding.

Good Luck

[Derny Driver]

... one of my favourites is "Further and Faster in plain English (training for dummies?!) https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=42693.0"

with respect ...that is the sort of crap the OP should be avoiding

He's 72 with two artificial knees, one artificial ankle, one fused ankle and one artificial wrist. It was interval training that effed him up.
Its great that everyone is trying to help, but lets keep it in perspective. Foo's answer on the first reply is all that is required.

Different people require different training programs. At 63 Im not going to do the same program my 25 year old son does. He has a power meter and does the fancy stuff, because he is young, fit and has cycling ability. Im old, carrying extra weight, and the cycling genes skipped over me from my dad to my son. If I did what he does ...well I couldnt and if I tried I would be in hospital. Im happy to do 15k nice and easy on flat ground these days. We are not sausages, all churned out the same. Mind you that was how the AIS worked under Charlie Walsh ..but I digress

[old pedals]

Hi once again
Thank you for the follow up answers and yes everything points back to the wisdom of "Foo". As follow up from my end, the strength in my legs has now gone to zero, to the point of needing to revert to my "much hated crutches" for support, although I am doing ten minutes of just spinning on my bike and trainer, whereas I am comfortable and enjoying the freedom. My Doctor booked me into the '5 Physio Sessions', the first of which starts this afternoon, he also booked me into a CT scan of both my upper and lower back as a safeguard towards the weakness in my legs and the 'pins and needles' in my hands, (yes they are still numb and pins and needles'.
The last scans I had were back in 2013 where I had the usual 'Arthritis damage', I used to do Furniture removing in my twenties, thirties and forties, in those days we were never taught to lift properly, so I suppose that finally caught up with me. I had a couple of needles over a few months, having some further degeneration including two bulging discs back then but eventually got back to ok again.
I'll keep you informed as to progress, especially the physio and also the scans.
To say I've been scared by this stupidity on my behalf of overtraining is an understatement but I'm optimistic of a good outcome and won't let it beat me, but boy if ever anyone else in my age or even younger wants to throw the dice as to training ideas without serious advice from the likes of all of you, then tell them to contact me, I am living proof that good intention, a overly positive attitude, and a will to succeed at all costs is simply that, stupidity.
Thank you all very much.
Regards Melvin

[foo on patrol]

@Melvin. The loss of strength in your legs, coupled with pins and needles points towards nerve trouble to me. I also used to lift furniture in my 20's but I had problems with sciatica from 18yrs old and had twisted hips and then was hit by a truck from behind and everything was compounded with nerve trouble. I also have bulged disc and half an extra vertebrae at the base of my spine , so am fully aware of what trouble can be imparted to the legs when sciatica hits me like a ton of bricks. At it's worst, the sciatic nerve will dump me on the ground in sheer agony and have no power in my right leg.

Hopefully with some scans, they can pin point the area of concern and you will be given some muscle exercises that will build up the strength around that nerve affected muscle group.

Foo

[Thoglette]

What Foo said.
I can only add that finally going to a Physio to resolve a knee problem has been rather illuminating: my diagnosis is mine alone but the rub is that my knee issue is a symptom of problems elsewhere - including upper back.

Would never have thought it. But it makes sense when explained (slowly and in words of two syllables or less) and in practice

[foo on patrol]

How are you faring now, Old Pedals?

Foo

[old pedals]

Hi Foo and others. thanks again for the follow up information. Yes I've been and had CT scans and it is as Foo suggested with pinched nerves. I can never do anything by halves; if I hadn't had them explained to be in brief sentencing I would never have believed it and all I can put it down to is being less that adaptable on my road bike and the position on the bike compared to my touring bike, coupled with the severe overtraining. If I was to tell someone without knowing the background of my stupidity in training they would not believe it and yes I know I have severe arthritis in my back as well but this has certainly floored me; A quick synopsis compressed nerves on C3, C4, C5, C6, C7 and C8. Compressed nerves on L2, L3, L4 and L5 also Spinal stenosis on 5 of the above. I am now using crutches as I have no strength in my legs whatsoever and both my hands are still numb. I have Physio again next Thursday and have to make an Appointment with a Neurosurgeon, she wont be back at work until next Tuesday but that may take a while for a date, I have been to her before, back in 2016. I am doing 10 minute sessions just spinning the pedals once a day which is like heaven.
I'll update you further soon.
Regards
Melvin

[foo on patrol]

Well that's good that you now know what is wrong and can get help for it, Melvin.

Foo

[RhapsodyX]

As someone who has permanent nerve damage from a failed disk (AT) L5/S1 and L4/L5 fused on their own a few years back... "frack", that's bad. The stenosis is probably the big one for you, that might require surgery given it can block CSF flow. Mate of mine had emergency surgery just before Christmas, first of many operations apparently - it's genetic in his case.

[AUbicycles]

Just want to share a short anecdote that I am hoping is helps for a positive perspective... from my mother who is really active and had surgery and asked the doctor “if I hadn’t had played squash and and tennis, would that have saved me from surgery?” The doctor replied “Yes, but you would have been fat.”

While I am in a different age bracket (and because the other members here have shared such valuable information), I could only contribute by suggesting that shifting perspective helps. I love being fast on the bike but also immensely enjoy the joy of riding. Before covid struck I had a nice group with some young and less experienced riders and some senior riders with ailments and the gentle pace was so refreshing. I hope this comes across the right way, but I trust you can get the satisfaction from adjusting your own expectations.

[foo on patrol]

Just want to share a short anecdote that I am hoping is helps for a positive perspective... from my mother who is really active and had surgery and asked the doctor “if I hadn’t had played squash and and tennis, would that have saved me from surgery?” The doctor replied “Yes, but you would have been fat.”

While I am in a different age bracket (and because the other members here have shared such valuable information), I could only contribute by suggesting that shifting perspective helps. I love being fast on the bike but also immensely enjoy the joy of riding. Before covid struck I had a nice group with some young and less experienced riders and some senior riders with ailments and the gentle pace was so refreshing. I hope this comes across the right way, but I trust you can get the satisfaction from adjusting your own expectations.

This is the thing with riding the bike and what I enjoy also. I race Track and that's my big buzz but I also ride with younger older and same age as me but then I ride the bike leg of the Bribie Tri where there is every imaginable age and levels of ability and if I pass any of the slower riders that are there for whatever reason, I give encouragement to them to keep it going and this is where a person with any ailments can be made to feel special and appreciated. Just do what you can on the bike at the pace that you can maintain and enjoy the freedom and scenery around you, because you're better off than some lounge lizard.

Foo